Protecting the Second Amendment – Why all Americans Should Be Concerned

[miclo18d]

Originally Posted by SF18C

Wanna reduce crime and violence...maybe we could ask the police how they fell about all these proposed and enacted gun laws.

http://www.policeone.com/Gun-Legisla...cers-thoughts/

I found the last question to be telling to the major problem and the thread on moral relativism...

11.) While some officers say gun violence in the United States stems from violent movies and video games (14 percent), early release and short sentencing for violent offenders (14 percent) and poor identification/treatments of mentally-ill individuals (10 percent), the majority (38 percent) blame a decline in parenting and family values.

This country is quickly walking away from family and Christian values and these shootings are just one symptom. People are believing that Feedom = hedonism. There is no freedom without strong morals, just anarchy, which leads to slavery.

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by miclo18d

This country is quickly walking away from family and Christian values and these shootings are just one symptom. People are believing that Feedom = hedonism. There is no freedom without strong morals, just anarchy, which leads to slavery.

on the news was a spot about a mega- church leader who has found it in his heart to forgive the guy who sold his son an unregistered gun over the Internet.
His son used it to commit suicide.
I don't care it was unregistered, I'm not in favor of registration. But a transfer conducted by a licensed dealer including a background check might have revealed the ministers son to be a bit unbalanced. And the transfer could have been delayed. Maybe that the son was buying a gun would have come as a red flag to someone. I don't know. just wondering, bring it. Sigh.

[Destrier]

I guess the ministers son does not know how to use a rope, car exhaust, fall from a bridge, bath tub hot water and razor blades. Criminals and crazies do not follow laws. They find tools. The ministers son found a tool that a guy was willing to sell. He could have just as soon sold him a length of rope.

[miclo18d]

The minister's son could have also driven himself to a really bad section of town and purchased a gun even if there were more stringent standards of background checks.



***callousness alert***

I feel bad that the kid (and kids in general) couldn't look past his nose or have someone to help him along but I have little sympathy for him. I'm just glad he didn't take anyone else with him.

Perhaps we should praise suicideds that only harm the person doing it. Shame people for mass killings. A little PsyOp experiment.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

on the news was a spot about a mega- church leader who has found it in his heart to forgive the guy who sold his son an unregistered gun over the Internet.
His son used it to commit suicide.
I don't care it was unregistered, I'm not in favor of registration. But a transfer conducted by a licensed dealer including a background check might have revealed the ministers son to be a bit unbalanced. And the transfer could have been delayed. Maybe that the son was buying a gun would have come as a red flag to someone. I don't know. just wondering, bring it. Sigh.

Sorry charlie, Matthew engaged in criminal activity and purchased a gun from a criminal and killed himself. How do I know that?

And just so you can understand "Only criminals sell guns with serial numbers scratched off." Got that?

There's not a gun law in on the books that will stop "CRIMINALs"...... screw that let's punish the law abiding citizens for someone elses criminal behavior. Liberal left wing socialist logic to me.

“We can’t tell if it’s registered or not because the serial number is scratched off,” Amormino said. “At one point in time, it may have been, but it’s going to be impossible to find out.”

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...tered-gun?lite

[sinjefe]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

on the news was a spot about a mega- church leader who has found it in his heart to forgive the guy who sold his son an unregistered gun over the Internet.
His son used it to commit suicide.
I don't care it was unregistered, I'm not in favor of registration. But a transfer conducted by a licensed dealer including a background check might have revealed the ministers son to be a bit unbalanced. And the transfer could have been delayed. Maybe that the son was buying a gun would have come as a red flag to someone. I don't know. just wondering, bring it. Sigh.

He would have just used a rope.

[Badger52]

Recalling the attempted distraction & disssembling of turncoat politicians, with rhetoric such as "no, this isn't going to keep 2 hunting buddies from selling each other a gun" - "this is just to close the gun-show loophole and get a handle on internet sales" etc., ad nauseum.

Here's the relevant section of S.649, the much-ballyhoo'd "moderate" "bi-partisan" compromise:

`(t)(1) Beginning on the date that is 180 days after the date of enactment of the Fix Gun Checks Act of 2013, it shall be unlawful for any person who is not licensed under this chapter to transfer a firearm to any other person who is not licensed under this chapter, unless a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer has first taken possession of the firearm for the purpose of complying with subsection (s). Upon taking possession of the firearm, the licensee shall comply with all requirements of this chapter as if the licensee were transferring the firearm from the licensee's inventory to the unlicensed transferee.
`(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to--
`(A) bona fide gifts between spouses, between parents and their children, between siblings, or between grandparents and their grandchildren;
`(B) a transfer made from a decedent's estate, pursuant to a legal will or the operation of law;
`(C) a temporary transfer of possession that occurs between an unlicensed transferor and an unlicensed transferee, if--
`(i) the temporary transfer of possession occurs in the home or curtilage of the unlicensed transferor;
`(ii) the firearm is not removed from that home or curtilage during the temporary transfer; and
`(iii) the transfer has a duration of less than 7 days; and
`(D) a temporary transfer of possession without transfer of title made in connection with lawful hunting or sporting purposes if the transfer occurs--
`(i) at a shooting range located in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in firearms and the firearm is, at all times, kept within the premises of the shooting range;
`(ii) at a target firearm shooting competition under the auspices of or approved by a State agency or nonprofit organization and the firearm is, at all times, kept within the premises of the shooting competition; or
`(iii) while hunting or trapping, if--
`(I) the activity is legal in all places where the unlicensed transferee possesses the firearm;
`(II) the temporary transfer of possession occurs during the designated hunting season; and
`(III) the unlicensed transferee holds any required license or permit.
`(3) For purposes of this subsection, the term `transfer'--
`(A) shall include a sale, gift, loan, return from pawn or consignment, or other disposition; and
`(B) shall not include temporary possession of the firearm for purposes of examination or evaluation by a prospective transferee while in the presence of the prospective transferee.
`(4)(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the Attorney General may implement this subsection with regulations.
`(B) Regulations promulgated under this paragraph--
`(i) shall include a provision setting a maximum fee that may be charged by licensees for services provided in accordance with paragraph (1); and
`(ii) shall include a provision requiring a record of transaction of any transfer that occurred between an unlicensed transferor and unlicensed transferee accordance with paragraph (1).'.
(b) Technical and Conforming Amendments-
(1) SECTION 922- Section 922(y)(2) of title 18, United States Code, is amended, in the matter preceding subparagraph (A), by striking `, (g)(5)(B), and (s)(3)(B)(v)(II)' and inserting `and (g)(5)(B)'.
(2) SECTION 925A- Section 925A of title 18, United States Code, is amended, in the matter preceding paragraph (1), by striking `subsection (s) or (t) of section 922' and inserting `section 922(s)'.
(3) NICS IMPROVEMENT AMENDMENTS ACT- Section 103(f) of the NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007 is amended by striking `section 922(t)' and inserting `section 922(s)'.
(4) CONSOLIDATED AND FURTHER CONTINUING APPROPRIATIONS ACT, 2012- Section 511 of title V of division B of the Consolidated and Further Continuing Appropriations Act, 2012 (18 U.S.C. 922 note) is amended by striking `subsection 922(t)' and inserting `section 922(s)' each place it appears.

Maybe I missed it. Anyone see up there an exception for 2 free people who are not prohibited persons engaging in a 1 to 1 act of sale of property?
PDF of the full text of this POS is here.

MR2: Guillotine's not on the NFA list yet, you may have something there.

[Badger52]

Often we don't hear about the defensive gun uses because they get buried in the court system and don't meet the MSM's dicta of "if it bleeds it leads." Here's one the Journal-Sentinel followed up on:

A college student whose string of armed store robberies ended when he was shot by a customer who had just gotten a Wisconsin concealed carry permit was sentenced Thursday to eight years in prison.

The Jan. 30, 2012, shooting inside an Aldi grocery was the first such bystander crime intervention since Wisconsin became the 48th state to allow concealed carry just two months earlier.

The customer - Nazir Al-Mujaahid - was not charged with any crime and emerged as a high-profile gun rights advocate, even as he tangled with authorities up to and through Thursday's sentencing for the return of his 9mm handgun. The gun had been seized as possible evidence in the case.
...
[Judge] Moroney first expressed the idea Al-Mujaahid's gun should be kept in police custody in case Cotton appealed.

But Monroe argued Al-Mujaahid's gun has nothing to do with Cotton's crime and even if it did, his client would be more than happy to produce it for prosecutors if and when needed. Meanwhile, Monroe said, Al-Mujaahid remains deprived of his property and concerned for his own safety.

Persuaded, Moroney agreed he would sign an order requiring police to return the gun to Al-Mujaahid in its holster and without requiring a separate case.

Monroe then left to take depositions in a federal civil rights lawsuit Al-Mujaahid and Wisconsin Carry Inc. filed months ago over the slow return of his gun, and the general practice in Milwaukee County of making lawful gun owners "engage in formal litigation to recover their seized property."

LINK to full story here.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

on the news was a spot about a mega- church leader who has found it in his heart to forgive the guy who sold his son an unregistered gun over the Internet.
His son used it to commit suicide.
I don't care it was unregistered, I'm not in favor of registration. But a transfer conducted by a licensed dealer including a background check might have revealed the ministers son to be a bit unbalanced. And the transfer could have been delayed. Maybe that the son was buying a gun would have come as a red flag to someone. I don't know. just wondering, bring it. Sigh.

I have a few questions:

1) What was the age of the son? To legally buy a rifle or shotgun, one must be 18; to buy a handgun one must be 21. So if it was a legal sale, the "kid" was in fact a legal adult (at least 18 if the gun he bought was a rifle, older if it was a pistol).

2) Was the seller a resident of the same state as the son? Did the sale take place face-to-face? Unless the sale was a face-to-face private sale between residents of the same state, then a background check would be required for the sale to be legal.

3) Had the son at any time been found legally disqualified to own a gun by a mental health professional? Unless this was true, his name would not trigger any alerts during a federal background check that would delay or prevent the sale.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

on the news was a spot about a mega- church leader who has found it in his heart to forgive the guy who sold his son an unregistered gun over the Internet.
His son used it to commit suicide.
I don't care it was unregistered, I'm not in favor of registration. But a transfer conducted by a licensed dealer including a background check might have revealed the ministers son to be a bit unbalanced. And the transfer could have been delayed. Maybe that the son was buying a gun would have come as a red flag to someone. I don't know. just wondering, bring it. Sigh.

While I am not exactly sure how you send a gun to someone "over the internet," no one in their right mind, will ship a gun to anyone other than a licensed FFL.

It is highly illegal, and I have heard that the package companies screen for that sort of contraband.

It would have been difficult to even offer a weapon for sale on the internet, since most websites like ebay and craigslist have banned firearms sales, even through licensed dealers.

If they met on the internet, the fact that he had a gun for sale was communicated, and the seller agreed to transfer it to him face to face, he was again breaking the law by not requiring proof of age before transferring the firearm.

Defacing a serial number is a serious Federal crime. Another violation.

Why could the son not have been equally successful by going to a dealer, and buying a weapon, with the background check, which he could have likely passed, before killing himself with it?

Or, as noted, used a rope, knife, car, tall building, bathtub, etc.?

I guess I must have missed something in 15-6 class, because I do not see the weapon as the proximate cause of the death. The person who pulled the trigger is.

TR

[Badger52]

If you are a Dillon customer, stop ogling Deandra on the cover of the latest Blue Press and turn to Page 20.

[Dozer523]

http://www.assistNews.net/stories/2013/s13040069.htm

TR and Razor,
Here is an article on the incident, most of the questions raised are addressed, except obviously, why didn't he use another method. I'm not being a smart ass here when I say because with a gun he probably thought he had the most effective way to accomplish his task -- quick, painless, . . .
This is a tragedy. If not preventable, it shouldn't be as easy as it was.
But because its a gun, no preventative action is acceptable? Is the position that the current level and severity of gun violence an acceptable cost of doing business? I don't get that.

How do we slow this down?

I think if you listen to the people in the middle are asking, "how do we al least reduce the deliberate misuse of guns?" They really aren't talking about taking your gun? Honestly.

[Streck-Fu]

They really aren't talking about taking your gun? Honestly.

Unfortunately the legislators/politicians are not in the middle and many are really trying to take them. I don't care what individual citizens are saying. I do care about what law writers are doing.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

http://www.assistNews.net/stories/2013/s13040069.htm

I think if you listen to the people in the middle are asking, "how do we al least reduce the deliberate misuse of guns?" They really aren't talking about taking your gun? Honestly.

Not yet. The libs' ultimate goal is confiscation. At the present, they have to satisfy themselves with chipping another tiny piece off the block of freedom.

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

They really aren't talking about taking your gun? Honestly.

They really aren't talking about taking your guns.
Sorry, should have been a period not a question mark.