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Old 09-10-2014, 07:07   #16
MtnGoat
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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
“There is a Mount Everest of radicalizing material” on the Internet, says Fernandez. “There’s a small hill, a hillock, of counter-radicalizing material.”

Social Media Flame War Against ISIS
Time, 9 Sep 2014

http://time.com/3305202/isis-barack-...wsletter-brief

Richard
There is a reason why ISIS has such a well thought out and planned Media campaign.

http://isisstudygroup.com/?p=1624
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Old 09-10-2014, 08:36   #17
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Online / schmon-line. OK, go ahead. Use the data and the whiz-bang technology to locate the wanna-bees, then send in SWAT teams decked out in jack boots and machine guns, and waste them. In the meantime go wherever and in whatever country these shitheads are sleeping and stuff their asses with napalm, cluster bombs, .50 cal slugs, (it don't matter...Post Toasties!) and kill every last one. Impale their bodies upside down on stakes along the roadway and let it be known their only option is to surrender for a merciful execution.

It doesn't have to be fancy to be effective. They don't deserve "fancy". No prisoners. None. JMHO.
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Old 09-10-2014, 09:04   #18
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There is a reason why ISIS has such a well thought out and planned Media campaign.

http://isisstudygroup.com/?p=1624
Good info - Boston may turn out to be a hotbed for Islamofascism leadership. If not overt leadership, then policy and technical expertise.

Below is a CBS article discussing American jihadists.

CBS/APSeptember 10, 2014, 10:02 AM
Colorado teen Shannon Conley's support of ISIS raises alarm about American jihadists

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/colorado...can-jihadists/

As an aside, not social media but an an avenue of entry and exit that bears scrutiny - IMO the Visa Waiver Program also needs to be watched carefully. Those select social media gurus can move fairly readily - recruiting hotbeds? They may not strap on the vests but they sure can make some nice movies.

The following 38 countries* are Visa Waiver Program participants:

A
Andorra
Australia
Austria

B
Belgium
Brunei

C
Chile
Czech Republic

D
Denmark

E
Estonia

F
Finland
France

G
Germany
Greece

H
Hungary

I
Iceland
Ireland
Italy

J
Japan

L
Latvia
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg

M
Malta
Monaco

N
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway

P
Portugal

S
San Marino
Singapore
Slovakia
Slovenia
South Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland

T
Taiwan

U
United Kingdom
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Old 09-10-2014, 09:22   #19
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Not too far south of Boston - 1 hour south...might be interesting to listen to what these folks bring to the perspective...note the emphasis on the use of digital technology. The tech and social media savy of the rising radical leadership will be formidable.

http://www.middleeastbrown.org/research-initiatives/
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Old 09-10-2014, 11:08   #20
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Great article. They understand long term UW stratgy. This section really got my attention.



IMHO we need to start a psyops campaign with the small kids in the middle east. Until we do this problem will continue to grow. As this article illistrates they are looking down the road while we are not. The Jesuits used to say give me a child until they are seven and I will give you a Catholic for life.
I think they bet us to that plan..

Captured Teen IS Recruit: Bombmaker, Suicide Bomber

http://rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/090920141
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Old 09-10-2014, 14:33   #21
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Online / schmon-line. OK, go ahead. Use the data and the whiz-bang technology to locate the wanna-bees, then send in SWAT teams decked out in jack boots and machine guns, and waste them. In the meantime go wherever and in whatever country these shitheads are sleeping and stuff their asses with napalm, cluster bombs, .50 cal slugs, (it don't matter...Post Toasties!) and kill every last one. Impale their bodies upside down on stakes along the roadway and let it be known their only option is to surrender for a merciful execution.

It doesn't have to be fancy to be effective. They don't deserve "fancy". No prisoners. None. JMHO.
No offense, but I'm reminded of the quote "You can't kill your way to victory."

I reckon killing represents a single slice of the victory pie, but like Brush Okie's post's I'd prefer to see younger children proper educated or counter indoctrinated to become productive members of their society(and maybe steal a couple of their truly very best) than to have to kill them as teenagers/adults.
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Old 09-10-2014, 14:42   #22
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Good info - Boston may turn out to be a hotbed for Islamofascism leadership. If not overt leadership, then policy and technical expertise.

Below is a CBS article discussing American jihadists.

CBS/APSeptember 10, 2014, 10:02 AM
Colorado teen Shannon Conley's support of ISIS raises alarm about American jihadists

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/colorado...can-jihadists/

As an aside, not social media but an an avenue of entry and exit that bears scrutiny - IMO the Visa Waiver Program also needs to be watched carefully. Those select social media gurus can move fairly readily - recruiting hotbeds? They may not strap on the vests but they sure can make some nice movies.

The following 38 countries* are Visa Waiver Program participants:


N
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
I remember a conversation with a guy I know from a fairly large company employing folks with a large engineering talent pool.

In order to grow the company needed to assist with the emigration of foreign nationals with technical talent not easily found, making it easier to source work visas for foreign nationals.

There were 3 foreign nationals from the Middle East who were called "Scuds" by the Kiwis. The reason why they were called "Scuds" is because when they received their work visas, which led to permanent residency, which led to citizenship(3 years at the time, now 5), which immediately upon receiving citizenship, they "launched" to the US due to visa free travel.

Very well educated folks who one might think would be very unlikely to radicalize, but then again the 9/11 bombers were well educated middle class.

And this was in the 9 months prior to 9/11.
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Old 09-10-2014, 14:54   #23
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I remember a conversation with a guy I know from a fairly large company employing folks with a large engineering talent pool.

In order to grow the company needed to assist with the emigration of foreign nationals with technical talent not easily found, making it easier to source work visas for foreign nationals.

There were 3 foreign nationals from the Middle East who were called "Scuds" by the Kiwis. The reason why they were called "Scuds" is because when they received their work visas, which led to permanent residency, which led to citizenship(3 years at the time, now 5), which immediately upon receiving citizenship, they "launched" to the US due to visa free travel.

Very well educated folks who one might think would be very unlikely to radicalize, but then again the 9/11 bombers were well educated middle class.

And this was in the 9 months prior to 9/11.
Interesting.

IMO, one need not "radicalize" to help the cause...where are the youtube vids and "million Muslim marches" in response to the recent beheadings ?

I keep hearing about all these moderate Muslims...the relative silence in condemning IS is telling.

A violent, aggressive group is seizing power and doing the dirty work...others remain silent...we have seen this movie before.
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Old 09-10-2014, 17:17   #24
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As I recall several major advertising firms and US Companies including Pepsi, Coke, Microsoft, Twitter, Facebook, MSNBC and many more, with the help of the US State Department had a symposium around 2009 to get the Arab Spring on track with selling the idea and the use of social media.

If we started it, surely we can figure how to get on top of it.
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Old 09-10-2014, 19:36   #25
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As I recall several major advertising firms and US Companies including Pepsi, Coke, Microsoft, Twitter, Facebook, MSNBC and many more, with the help of the US State Department had a symposium around 2009 to get the Arab Spring on track with selling the idea and the use of social media.

If we started it, surely we can figure how to get on top of it.
You would think!

But I wonder if what occurred in 2009 and what followed is an online analog to say Gorbachev and Perestroika/Glasnost?

Especially Glasnost.

Does Glasnost, which cracked open the door to freedom in an attempt at controlled reform(but led to the door being kicked in and reform going completely out of control) represent an analog to the US policy precursors to the Arab Spring?

Instead of comparison to President Carter, does the current US Administration's regional foreign policy bear comparison to Gorbachev's?
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Old 09-10-2014, 19:57   #26
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No offense, but I'm reminded of the quote "You can't kill your way to victory."

I reckon killing represents a single slice of the victory pie, but like Brush Okie's post's I'd prefer to see younger children proper educated or counter indoctrinated to become productive members of their society(and maybe steal a couple of their truly very best) than to have to kill them as teenagers/adults.
Flagg, I'm in violent agreement with both your passion and the nobility of your argument. Certainly the civilized world should strive with all its worth to prevent the killing of anybody, teenager or adult. Unfortunately ISIS has demonstrated their absolute contempt for the nobility of that premise. They will use any age or gender of person to attack whoever they perceive as a threat regardless of age. In the face of that demonstrated behavior I submit one cannot negotiate with anything less than with brute force. With all respects to Secretary Gates quote, I recall this from Teddy Roosevelt: "Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft."

There is "A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up" and this IMHO is a time to kill and to break down. We really have not been afforded any other options.
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Old 09-11-2014, 00:40   #27
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I suggest you read "SAS Secret War" as well as "The Village"

Long story short while killing bad guys is needed it is not the only way to go and it is a ways to a means not the solution. Driving into an Iraqi Village and killing everyone will not win the war. Taking out the ISIS in the local village, rooting out the shadow govt, and winning support of the local populace will.

What an insurgent want to do is separate you and I from the population. There are a lot of different ways they do that. one way is to make you think everyone in an area/religion/race etc (take your pick) supports them and is against you. They then like to provoke an over response or perception of one by the forces thus making the local population hate you more than they hate the other side.

The reason they like to show the beheading of Americans is because you see a Muslim killing and American, not an ISIS terrorist killing him. This has several effects but the the one on the average joe blow American doesn't know the difference between sunni/sheit/ arab/persian etc. All you see is some "rag head" killing a fellow citizen and sub concesiouly want to over react and kill every Muslim. They then point to that guy and say see all Christians hate all Muslims. After all Achmed your uncle liked American or at least was neutral, but yet they killed him. See they hate all of us. Your only hope is to join your brothers and kill Americans.

Either you get it or you do not. The US military does not and it bit us in the ass in Iraq and Afghanistan. To fix the "problem" they made up stupid ROE that compounded the issue and it just went to shit from there. That is why conventions troops and command need to stay the hell away from UW and let SOF handle things.

Think of this. What if the country here went to shit and the UN came in and helped us rebuild. During that time some troops took it upon themselves to rape and kill your wife and daughter. What would you do? I know if it were me there would be some dead blue hats.
Just "some"?

The bold part has me thinking about the Sorcerer's Apprentice scene from Fantasia(sorry, just got back from taking my rugrats to Disneyland).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHTnJNGvQcA

Your last paragraph reminds me of a story I was told directly from one of our really well regarded high speedy guys in Afghan in the very early days(late 2001 I believe).

They had to get from "A" to "B" requiring them to transit right through a question mark village at O dark hundred.

They took a few rounds on their way in, pushed thru, and conducted their IA on the far side. The attached JTAC was straight on coms to call a strike on the village and the patrol commander ordered him to stop, when asked why by the JTAC he said something to the effect of "What would you do if some armed strangers rocked through YOUR home at 3am?"
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:02   #28
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Flagg, I'm in violent agreement with both your passion and the nobility of your argument. Certainly the civilized world should strive with all its worth to prevent the killing of anybody, teenager or adult. Unfortunately ISIS has demonstrated their absolute contempt for the nobility of that premise. They will use any age or gender of person to attack whoever they perceive as a threat regardless of age. In the face of that demonstrated behavior I submit one cannot negotiate with anything less than with brute force. With all respects to Secretary Gates quote, I recall this from Teddy Roosevelt: "Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft."

There is "A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up" and this IMHO is a time to kill and to break down. We really have not been afforded any other options.
I like the Conan Valhalla total war stuff as much as the next guy, but I can't help but think the clear need for invasive surgical intervention(direct kinetic operations) is almost always NOT the exclusive treatment, but just part of a holistic approach to treating the patient.

My personal thought is that if the majority of the treatment is surgical/kinetic in most instances, then we're doing it wrong.

I reckon it's analogous to health care. Surgical capability is awesome. But surgical addiction can turn into a genuine problem. Most health care is non-surgical. I reckon the majority of solving this problem is non-surgical/kinetic...albeit this latest generation of cancerous tumors will have to be removed.....along with a healthy dose of antibiotics and holistic preventative care and lifestyle adjustment for the "patient".

Don't get me wrong, I'm still a "Hulk SMASH!" light infantry fella at heart, but I do like reading my Fitzroy Maclean's Eastern Approaches.

I reckon it's like that "economy of effort"(NOT laziness) that comes from light infantry/donkey doctrine mixed with a bit of the dirty realpolitik of Michael Corleone in Godfather 2.

Why kill someone when you can train someone to kill them for you?

Why kill someone unless you need to? It could be bad for long-term business.

But if you need to kill someone, make sure you do the job properly......and don't leave another generation to kill all over again once they grow up.

By "don't leave" I mean cut the cycle of recruitment to violence via non-kinetic means....before it compels coming back and killing them 10-15 years later( instead of 10-15 seconds later as per Godfather in Sicily to mitigate vendetta).

Just my random thoughts....no harm no foul.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:23   #29
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Sorry, y'all. I'm running on 100+ octane piss right now. Tragically, I'm not alone. I admire those who think clearly. I really do. I have lost the bubble on finessing peace out of the mouth of a Pitt Bull that's shaking the arm of a kid. There's no "exclusive" approach that will probably work. And it will take a village to raise this good idiot. Nation building and winning hearts and minds is a necessary MOS, it's just not mine.

But, friends and neighbors, if there ever was an enemy that deserved killing without the slightest hint of mercy it's this one. I say kill the bastards and their seeds. Alas, it is my humble condition today.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:28   #30
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I watched 'Judgment At Nuremburg' last night - it is a powerful reminder of the tenuous nature of the rule of law during times of perceived threat, personal responsibility, and who we seek to be as a society.

Richard
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