11-12-2014, 17:56
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#1
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Like My Mankini?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: OH for now
Posts: 437
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Sailors hassled in Turkey
A small group of young sailors on shore leave in Turkey assaulted by "neo-nationalists".
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/12/politi...x.html?c=world
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blacksmoke is offline
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11-12-2014, 21:13
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#2
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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Maybe we should skip the port calls to our NATO "ally" Turkey.
They have not been much of a friend for a long time.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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11-12-2014, 22:12
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#3
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Area Commander
Join Date: May 2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,423
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It just seems like Turkey is going in a silly direction.
They are quite lucky the EU was too racist to bring them into the EU sooner because post GFC Turkey is lucky they weren't able to join at the time as it probably would have cost them jillions.
What I can't understand is how a country that has managed to perform pretty well(all things considered with the GFC) over recent decades seems to be clearly heading in the wrong anti-secular direction socially/culturally.
Turkish victory over the allies at Gallipoli is now being increasingly credited to Allah rather than Ataturk's soldiers.
Raki/Lion's Milk(Turkish fermented drink) is under attack by fundamentalists.
Turkey playing geopolitical games with allies in 2003 and now with Syria/ISIS
Erdogan emasculating the Turkish military's historical secular reboot capability via the Ergenekon/Sledgehammer cases.
Not good…..
Ataturk would be rolling in his grave.
I wonder if Turkey is a potential Ukraine like battle between fundamentalist UW and secular C-UW?
I just hope next April 25th's 100th anniversary goes without incident and the Turkish people are still accommodating to visitors.
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Flagg is offline
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11-13-2014, 00:18
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#4
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadsword2004
Not that I am some super bad-ass or anything, but the moment those guys grabbed me solidly like that, I'd have started fighting back as ferociously as I could to get away. No way I'd just stand there and let them try and stick a bag over my head, which could mean who-knows-what (kidnapping, murder, etc...).
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This must have been quite a shocking experience for these young sailors. It got me wondering what the Navy's policy towards personal defense whilst on shore leave is. Firearms I suppose are a no go but what about a small blade which could be useful for creating an escape opportunity. I would be very surprised that anyone would go anywhere completely unarmed ever. Especially in the absence of some draconian regulation forbidding it.
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RomanCandle is offline
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11-13-2014, 10:52
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#5
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Like My Mankini?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: OH for now
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3-4 young guys in a foreign country being surrounded by a much larger group of indigenous, I think they handled it well. An ass whipping or stabbing on camera in a foreign country, not good. Also notably, the neo-nationalists looked quite sissy themselves.
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blacksmoke is offline
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11-13-2014, 11:24
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#6
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanCandle
This must have been quite a shocking experience for these young sailors. It got me wondering what the Navy's policy towards personal defense whilst on shore leave is. Firearms I suppose are a no go but what about a small blade which could be useful for creating an escape opportunity. I would be very surprised that anyone would go anywhere completely unarmed ever. Especially in the absence of some draconian regulation forbidding it.
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It would depend on the SOFA, but I would expect that if the sailors stabbed someone in the crowd, and were able to escape with their lives, they would be in the local legal system (if not the penal system) for a long time.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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11-13-2014, 11:39
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#7
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksmoke
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Funny how the word muslim was not in that article.........
IMO the USA needs to remove all our bases from every muslim country.
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"The Spartans do not ask how many are the enemy, but where they are."
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Team Sergeant is offline
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11-13-2014, 11:58
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#8
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Like My Mankini?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: OH for now
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That's because they were "neo-nationalist" Red-Sox fans chanting "Yankee go home".
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blacksmoke is offline
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11-13-2014, 12:10
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#9
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
It would depend on the SOFA, but I would expect that if the sailors stabbed someone in the crowd, and were able to escape with their lives, they would be in the local legal system (if not the penal system) for a long time.
TR
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It seems that notwithstanding a the terms of a status agreement one would seriously have to consider escaping a possible kidnapping attempt. The bags over the heads although seemingly symbolic of another event are quite ominous. Or maybe just stay on the ship.
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RomanCandle is offline
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11-13-2014, 16:30
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#10
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Area Commander
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Northern Neck Virginia
Posts: 1,138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
Funny how the word muslim was not in that article.........
IMO the USA needs to remove all our bases from every muslim country.
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A previous Navy would have held dungaree liberty on the joint and then went back to the ship and watched a movie.
These days I think TS has the plan. Get the hell out of every muslim port and screw those simple headed bastards.
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v/r,
LarryW
"Do not go gentle into that good night..."
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LarryW is offline
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11-13-2014, 18:20
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#11
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Arizona
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Turkey is going the Islamist route for the last decade or so...the PM is a staunch literal Islamist.
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PRB is offline
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11-14-2014, 00:39
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#12
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadsword2004
I would assume that U.S. military personnel on shore leave would have to adhere to the laws of the country they are in. If the military has to seriously consider having all such military people armed while on shore leave for safety purposes, might be better to just not have any go on shore in the first place if things are that bad.
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I get that, and am sure that sailors and other personnel would be briefed on the do's and dont's prior to disembarking in various ports. I didn't word it very well but I was more wondering what the US Navy's reaction would be to a sailor that just happened to be attacked by a mob and used a small concealable blade to create some distance from grabbing hands to get away and back to ship or somewhere safe.
Lets assume that brass accepted that it was a potential kidnapping attempt or some other potentially dangerous situation. (Not a bar fight or confrontation where the sailor was the instigator etc) and the sailor managed to evade local authorities and avoid custody of the local legal system.
The reason I ask is because I would imagine these things would all influence whether a sailor etc would go so armed or not. I would do it in that position if I knew my bosses would back me irrespective of the local laws long as my nose was clean. Otherwise I wouldn't go ashore.
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RomanCandle is offline
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11-14-2014, 21:09
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#13
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Auxiliary
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NM
Posts: 92
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This is why I don't travel in islamic countries...
QP's,
Diplomatically speaking, was the way they handled this situation the best way? Clearly they were scared. Would it be so wrong to fight back against an aggressive mob?
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Lighthouse is offline
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11-14-2014, 21:24
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#14
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse
This is why I don't travel in islamic countries...
QP's,
Diplomatically speaking, was the way they handled this situation the best way? Clearly they were scared. Would it be so wrong to fight back against an aggressive mob?
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IMHO, they did the right thing.
You are not going to fight half of Istanbul in the streets and win, and even if you did, you would cost the US face there.
The last thing the Ambassador wants to deal with is a fight with the locals.
I would like to see prosecution of the locals involved, an apology from the Turkish government, and any future port calls would require an escort for each group of sailors with a Turkish Navy rep and a local LEO.
Absent that, I would probably not make port calls there anymore, and would let the Turkish government know that.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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11-15-2014, 08:44
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#15
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
IMHO, they did the right thing.
You are not going to fight half of Istanbul in the streets and win, and even if you did, you would cost the US face there.
The last thing the Ambassador wants to deal with is a fight with the locals.
I would like to see prosecution of the locals involved, an apology from the Turkish government, and any future port calls would require an escort for each group of sailors with a Turkish Navy rep and a local LEO.
Absent that, I would probably not make port calls there anymore, and would let the Turkish government know that.
TR
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I don't give those sailors that much credit. Based on that video only, I think they did not actively or consciously decide not to fight or resist. I think the crowd relented somewhat and they saw an opportunity to (wisely) run. Clearly a fight in that situation is a no win situation but it appears they allowed the crowd to decided their fate. Had they resisted maybe it would have been worse....regardless the outcome was good for the sailors.
I wonder what would have happened if a couple of 0311 NCO's were in those sailors shoes....?
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Five-O is offline
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