PRC-150?

[Badger52]

Originally Posted by albeham

I remember well.

The days of old... and every radio op knew better then the S-6.. LOL


AL

Think they didn't count that high in my day; someone got parked in the Bn 3 shop on their way to goin' somewhere else, bestowed a title called C&E officer and quite often the operators did know more. Times like that make for entertaining threads about "why can't we make comms?"

[mark46th]

I used crystals to set frequencies on the ANG/RC109. It looks like things have changed over the years.

[albeham]

Originally Posted by mark46th

I used crystals to set frequencies on the ANG/RC109. It looks like things have changed over the years.

A little, but its still magical ...

[BMT (RIP)]

7th Gp had a C&E officer even in 1971.

BMT

[69harley]

Originally Posted by albeham

OK cool..

But don't you still program the freqs in to the radio, so each radio knows what channel to use?

If so, you need to request the use of theses freqs. even for a ALE type radio like the 150. Unless regs have changed since I use them this morning. Freq Managers are up to date, might be the person you go to that is not doing his/her job..you do go to your S-6 and get freqs..right?

even with LPI/LPD emissions, there is still a need to get them assignment, it helps to protects you from EMI to others and others to you. ( in a nice world) Boat legging freqs is not good.

That statement you gave tells me that you don't have or use your Freq manager.

twenty years ago..I ant that old....

I have not had time with the 150 so a good lesson is in store for me.

Military Automatic Link Establishment (ALE) and LPI/LPD work sort of different from each other. With the legacy HF radios, ie 74,70, 104, the base station would monitor a bunch of freqs and outstations would select the best one for them.

ALE sort of automates the process and allows a single radio in the base station to monitor a bunch of freqs. The radios ping each other, score the channel quality and then link on the best channel. LPI/LPD adds a slight variation in that once the radios link on a chennel, they then begin to hop around, going higher and lower than the center freq.

So yes, freqs are still programed into the radio, but they are not always 'fixed'.

[glebo]

Originally Posted by 69harley

Military Automatic Link Establishment (ALE) and LPI/LPD work sort of different from each other. With the legacy HF radios, ie 74,70, 104, the base station would monitor a bunch of freqs and outstations would select the best one for them.

ALE sort of automates the process and allows a single radio in the base station to monitor a bunch of freqs. The radios ping each other, score the channel quality and then link on the best channel. LPI/LPD adds a slight variation in that once the radios link on a chennel, they then begin to hop around, going higher and lower than the center freq.

So yes, freqs are still programed into the radio, but they are not always 'fixed'.

Correct, the two different ALE's are SOF ALE (which is also LPI/LPD) which scans the spectrum and links up automatically without preprogrammed freqs and MIL STD ALE, which you program a set of hopefully useable freq's and it scans those freq's to link up.

[albeham]

Originally Posted by glebo

Correct, the two different ALE's are SOF ALE (which is also LPI/LPD) which scans the spectrum and links up automatically without preprogrammed freqs and MIL STD ALE, which you program a set of hopefully useable freq's and it scans those freq's to link up.

Yes I know.... D. all of the above.

Glad to see there are smart folks out there still..

AL

[glebo]

Originally Posted by albeham

Yes I know.... D. all of the above.

Glad to see there are smart folks out there still..

AL

I know, I was just throwing it out there in case there was any confusion....between the two different systems and their technique of ALE...

gotta love HF "magic"..

[albeham]

I am with you.

I spoke before I read..shame on me.

What I do now is not the cool shit we use to do, but I get into a lot of IFF, SAT, 1494s, SPEC21, etc. and there spectrum support.

Miss the days of really playing HF. I was told once that I was too military minded when it came to everything.. I said with "SO", but I did open my mind set to the many other paths of RF, that one can get into out here as a commo god. But at times even a commo god needs to remember his past.

There is still a lot of spectrum that needs attending...

AL

[Joshua.David]

We "briefly" covered the 15o in the echo course. The power point was brand new and we basically roughed our way through it. Honestly disregarded the entire platform and was told to use the 137 it is a better system. Although I heard they have gone a bit more in-depth with it now and it is actually a testable system and it being used.

I'd like to find more out about it and people thoughts and reviews.
-josh

[Aimpoint]

Hey all. Hopefully this thread hasn't died. I'm an 11B on one of the teams in Hagerstown, currently the RTO. I've been RTO for the past 4 years, and I really wouldn't trade it for anything else- it's a good feeling when we're in a hurricane and all the teams can't make comms except for yours . Anyways, AT is coming up so I'm trying to get up on all my radio knowledge (again). Its tough because this stuff really is a perishable skill.

A couple of drills ago, our teams were being graded on our basic skills by the det LT- insertion, SILS, hand and arm signals, ANGUS, ect... To make a long story short, myself and the ARTO were running our RF-1940 antenna up, and the LT (who was fairly new to LRS) and the TL (also fairly new) were dumfounded as to why it took SO FRIGGIN LONG. Now there's always room for improvement, but the ARTO and myself can do it pretty quick. At least as quick as the 1940 could ever go up. It really made me realize how vulnerable the team is when doing a commo shot, and how much attention it draws.

I'd like to avoid the 1940 at all costs this AT. Avoiding the whip would be nice too, as it makes metal on metal noise that can be identified at a distance. Is there a field expedient method that would give similar capabilities? I've thought about rolling up some commo wire (or similar) into my ruck, and just unfurling it while doing comms. Would this would have to be cut for freq , or can the 150 tune to pretty much any length of wire? Currently have the 7-93 and FM 6-02 in hand, but no experience with field expedient methods.

[69harley]

The 1940 as I recall is a dipole antenna kit manufactured or sold by Harris.

Hmmm, were to start. The antenna type is really driven by the distance between the two radios and transmitter power. Low hanging dipoles work pretty good for short range NVIS shots and verticle whips with their lower take off angles are good for longer range shots (ie Ft. Bragg to Ft. Polk).

The take off angle of a dipole is tuned by raising and lowering the feed point. Good rule of thumb is higher feed point, equals a lower take off angle, and vise versa, lower feed point will give a higher take off angle.

If you are not already doing this, ask the commo section for the antenna analysis and propogation charts for the exercise. You really want these in electronic format so that you can click around on the screen and determine various take off angles and other key bits of information, like signal to noise ratio. Look at your window times on the prop chart. It may be that signal to noise ratio will change drastically within your window. It may be planned up front that you will attempt comms in the last half of the window, etc.

Many a team has found success with some variant of the 112' (or so) long piece of wire. Start with simple and easy and work your way up to large and complex. The best antenna is the smallest and easiest one that closes the circuit with an acceptable link margin.

The ALE aspect of the 150 makes cutting resonant antennas somewhat of a compromise. I would look at the freqs in the RPA and cut a few antennas to those freqs.

If you don't already have a sling shot in your antenna kit you should get one. I think more noise and movement is made trying to get a rope over a tree branch than any other commo activity. Use some small green rope and a medium sized fishing weight, or the rope from a GRA-50. Use the sling shot to shoot the weight over the branch. Practice this a few times before going to the woods with your team. Bring a couple ropes in case one gets caught.

[Aimpoint]

Originally Posted by 69harley

The 1940 as I recall is a dipole antenna kit manufactured or sold by Harris.

Roger, it's a dipole kit although we usually run it in a sloping v.

Originally Posted by 69harley

Look at your window times on the prop chart. It may be that signal to noise ratio will change drastically within your window. It may be planned up front that you will attempt comms in the last half of the window, etc.

Awesome tip. It didn't occur to me that the s/n ratio would change during the window.

Originally Posted by 69harley

If you don't already have a sling shot in your antenna kit you should get one. I think more noise and movement is made trying to get a rope over a tree branch than any other commo activity.

That's a GREAT idea. Getting the rope up is damn noisy, especially in the dark. Sending an ANGUS with the 1940 kit at 0200 when there's a time hack (eyes on) is counterproductive, IMO. In addition, security hasn't really been established, and it's noisy as hell... just a bad idea. One day we'll get dedicated SATCOM


I forgot we're doing a CALFEX, which is graded, so experimentation at the hide probably won't happen. Hoping to run the whip, which is fine. Thanks for the tips.

[69harley]

Originally Posted by Aimpoint

Sending an ANGUS with the 1940 kit at 0200 when there's a time hack (eyes on) is counterproductive, IMO. In addition, security hasn't really been established, and it's noisy as hell... just a bad idea. One day we'll get dedicated SATCOM

I was a LRSD & LRSC Commo chief for over twelve years and this does not sound right. Typically, a LRS team inserts at first dark and does not have a planned window until first light. We used to have teams come up on SATCOM voice to send an ANGUS one terrain feature away from insertion, but over time that was deemed not neccasarry. The guys on the insertion aircraft confirm the team was inserted. Having the team do anything between insertion and sunrise just takes away precious time for movement and digging.

[bravo22b]

Originally Posted by Aimpoint

Hey all. Hopefully this thread hasn't died. I'm an 11B on one of the teams in Hagerstown, currently the RTO. I've been RTO for the past 4 years, and I really wouldn't trade it for anything else- it's a good feeling when we're in a hurricane and all the teams can't make comms except for yours . Anyways, AT is coming up so I'm trying to get up on all my radio knowledge (again). Its tough because this stuff really is a perishable skill.

A couple of drills ago, our teams were being graded on our basic skills by the det LT- insertion, SILS, hand and arm signals, ANGUS, ect... To make a long story short, myself and the ARTO were running our RF-1940 antenna up, and the LT (who was fairly new to LRS) and the TL (also fairly new) were dumfounded as to why it took SO FRIGGIN LONG. Now there's always room for improvement, but the ARTO and myself can do it pretty quick. At least as quick as the 1940 could ever go up. It really made me realize how vulnerable the team is when doing a commo shot, and how much attention it draws.

I'd like to avoid the 1940 at all costs this AT. Avoiding the whip would be nice too, as it makes metal on metal noise that can be identified at a distance. Is there a field expedient method that would give similar capabilities? I've thought about rolling up some commo wire (or similar) into my ruck, and just unfurling it while doing comms. Would this would have to be cut for freq , or can the 150 tune to pretty much any length of wire? Currently have the 7-93 and FM 6-02 in hand, but no experience with field expedient methods.

Aimpoint -

I applaud you on your motivation and initiative. As you can see, I use this board as a resource to find answers to questions just like you do. As usual, you got some great advice here. That said, the answers to your questions can also be answered within the unit by just asking the right people. The RF-1944 antennas are difficult to set up quickly, although with a lot of practice and some modifications, they can be set up pretty quickly, even at night. I would be happy to show you how to do it faster and more efficiently. You want to keep the RF-1944 in your bag of tricks, because it will generally get you better link quality across a wider range of freqs without modifications.

If you want to know how to make and set up a field expedient dipole, ask me or SSG D (1st Platoon). We both have our slightly different techniques, but I can tell you that I can easily set up a quick low level dipole in under 10 minutes (probably under 6-7 minutes), and I can break it down in under 5 minutes.

I was a LRSD & LRSC Commo chief for over twelve years and this does not sound right. Typically, a LRS team inserts at first dark and does not have a planned window until first light. We used to have teams come up on SATCOM voice to send an ANGUS one terrain feature away from insertion, but over time that was deemed not neccasarry. The guys on the insertion aircraft confirm the team was inserted. Having the team do anything between insertion and sunrise just takes away precious time for movement and digging.

Aimpoint and 69 Harley -

In some ways, you're both right. The unit SOP is to send up the ANGUS report within 4 hours of insertion. There is an argument to be made that it is not 100% necessary and that it takes time away from getting to the NAI and getting eyes on. What you have to keep in mind is that we are a NG unit conducting our training within some time constraints. The typical training mission we run is about 36 hours from insert to extract. The team inserts at last light, moves to the NAI during hours of darkness, gets eyes on by first light, then exfils after last light that evening and is extracted the next morning. If you didn't do your ANGUS report on that first night while moving, when would you get the chance to practice setting up your antenna at night, while at a long halt? Setting an antenna up once during daylight while in the hide site is easy, that is not adding much to your training. During our training, the commo windows are somewhat unrealistically closer together than necessary. The reason for this is to force the teams to set up their antennas multiple times and use the radios and reporting formats multiple times. That maximizes the training value we can get out of a 36 hour mission.

Two other quick points: you should not be doing comms without having security set up first. Long halt procedures start with establishing security and setting out your claymores. If this isn't done, you shouldn't be using the radio. Also, the rest of the team should be at 100% security.

Also, the technique a lot of teams try to use is to get to their ORP within the 4 hour window. That way they can set up security and make comms once instead of twice. It doesn't always work, but it's a good technique if you can do it.

Lastly, Aimpoint, if you go to RSLC, be prepared to do it the way we're teaching it. That's the way they do it (at least as recently as last year), and you might even be thankful you've had all this practice doing it. RTO is a graded position and getting your ANGUS up is definitely part of the grade.