Go Back   Professional Soldiers ® > At Ease > General Discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-21-2006, 05:19   #1
Dirt Gallo
Asset
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: MI
Posts: 34
What are they getting into?

Just a general question to the elders in the know.....
After reading this ( http://counterterrorismblog.org/ ), I was curious if you any of you can say if this holds any water. I have never really heard anything about the Lebanese forces prior, but, had assumed for some time that the IDF was the predominant force in the area. If they are able to go toe-to-toe with Israel's infantry, how do you guys foresee this situation turning out over there?

Back to being a greyman,
JP
Dirt Gallo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 12:24   #2
Airbornelawyer
Moderator
 
Airbornelawyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirt Gallo
Just a general question to the elders in the know.....
After reading this ( http://counterterrorismblog.org/ ), I was curious if you any of you can say if this holds any water. I have never really heard anything about the Lebanese forces prior, but, had assumed for some time that the IDF was the predominant force in the area. If they are able to go toe-to-toe with Israel's infantry, how do you guys foresee this situation turning out over there?

Back to being a greyman,
JP
You link to a blog's main page, which includes comments on a number of topics.

I do not see anything specifically addressing the Lebanese Army there, which is whom I assume you are referring to (the "Lebanese Forces" was a Christian militia and now a political movement in Lebanon's Maronite Catholic community).

But if your question is what would happen if the Lebanese Army tried to go toe-to-toe with the IDF in conventional battle, the answer is that they would be crushed. The Lebanese Army is, in terms of the intangibles that really make an Army effective - morale, training, excellent officers and NCOs - the best in the Arab world. But it is hugely outclassed in these categories by the IDF, which also enjoys overwhelming superiority in those other factors of military effectiveness - better command and control, better weapons, better logistics.

The Lebanese Army is equipped with several hundred surplus M-113s provided by the US, less than a hundred or so tanks (mostly T-55s) supplied by Syria, and practically no Air Force.

Hizbullah, by contrast, is a different nut to crack. Hizbullah, despite its rather laughable propaganda, has no serious conventional military capability. Its strategy, though, is not o make the mistake of fighting the IDF on its own terms. It focuses on raids and ambushes, and hides in civilian areas and hugs UNIFIL observation posts in hopes of constraining Israel's ability to bring its power to bear for fear of the negative propaganda of civilian and UN troop casualties. They don't have to defeat Israel militarily, they just have to hunker down long enough for international diplomatic efforts and domestic Israeli concerns over terror casualties and a slow bleed of combat deaths to hand them victory by forcing Israel to unilaterally withdraw again behind its borders.
Airbornelawyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 13:24   #3
Patriot
Asset
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 20
We might find out soon.....

It looks like we might find out soon. The IDF is massing troops on the border and a major ground offensive appears to be in the making. So, we shall see perhaps.

But, to go on record, the IDF will mop the floor with the LA, no comparison at all in any catagory.
__________________
"No matter whether we travel in big parties or little ones, each party has to keep scout 20 yards ahead, 20 yards on each flank, and 20 yards in the rear so the main body can't be surprised and wiped out."...Major Robert Rogers
Patriot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 13:45   #4
Dirt Gallo
Asset
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: MI
Posts: 34
My apologies. This morning when I found that site through Google News, the article I was referring to was the only one for today. The article that I was referring to is titled "Worst Case Scenario: Hezbollah's Conventional Forces
By Bill Roggio" and is about 3 pages down.

I ask about this in hopes of enlightening myself on the further escalating situations over yonder. I have found myself to be one of the only inquisitive soldiers that I know about suck things. The most common response I get when talking about details of the who and why of how things are they way they are in the Middle East usually ends up being....."We should just turn that damn area into a sheet of glass...".

Just trying to understand a bit more about the world around me rather than trust our local media sources and the cynicism of a few of my fellow soldiers,

JP
Dirt Gallo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 15:38   #5
tk27
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: RI/MA
Posts: 230
The IDF would prevail in a conventional battle. This is not a conventional battle.

Unable to stop rocket attacks from the air, Israel will go in on the ground to take dug in positions. Search and destroy raids against rocket positions, then pulling back. This won’t stop the attacks; there will be domestic political pressure for Olhmert to hold ground, enough to at least push the Katyushas out of range of Haifa. This is what Hezbollah wants, the IDF sucked deep into Lebanon with extended supply lines.

Hezbollah playing on the home court will inflict heavy casualties on the IDF. There then will be domestic pressure for the IDF to go after Hezbollah infrastructure in the Bekaa Valley and in southern Beirut. Again, will raids alone do the job or does ground need to be held? Does the IDF then stretch itself deeper into Lebanon? If you’re holding ground what’s the Lebanese government going to do?

Meanwhile the West’s diplomatic attention shifts from Iran’s nuke program to this conflict, potentially buying enough time for Iran to complete its quest for nukes thereby changing the regions balance of power.
tk27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 20:55   #6
Cincinnatus
Guerrilla
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbornelawyer
The Lebanese Army is, in terms of the intangibles that really make an Army effective - morale, training, excellent officers and NCOs - the best in the Arab world.

AL,

I know from reading, among others, Pollack's "Arabs at War" that the battlefield performance of Arab militaries has been pretty dismal. I'd thought, though, that Jordan's army was likely to be the best of the bunch, the legacy of Glub Pasha, and having a professional military class and martial history through the Bedouin.

I'm by no means an expert and am always eager to learn. What makes you rate the Lebanese army as you do?
Cincinnatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2006, 22:47   #7
Airbornelawyer
Moderator
 
Airbornelawyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnatus
AL,

I know from reading, among others, Pollack's "Arabs at War" that the battlefield performance of Arab militaries has been pretty dismal. I'd thought, though, that Jordan's army was likely to be the best of the bunch, the legacy of Glub Pasha, and having a professional military class and martial history through the Bedouin.

I'm by no means an expert and am always eager to learn. What makes you rate the Lebanese army as you do?
This might be a too glibly short answer, because I am in a hurry, but it is mainly based on my experience: I have worked with Arab soldiers from Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Morocco and Kuwait. While individual soldiers from most of these had their merits (including a rather high-speed Emirati lieutenant), only the Lebanese consistently impressed.

I am less than overwhelmed by the Jordanians, though they are leagues better than the Saudis (though the prediminantly Bedouin SANG is better than the Saudi Army), though there do appear to be some relatively high quality Jordanian officers and units (and I did go to college with their king).
Airbornelawyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2006, 10:38   #8
tk27
BANNED USER
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: RI/MA
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbornelawyer
(and I did go to college with their king).
Sir, if its not a breach of PERSEC was it at Pembroke or GU Walsh?


Ralph Peters has an article today on the situation, Can Israel Win? Not the way it is fighting. In the article he strongly critics Olmerts lackluster start of the campaign, poor targeting and intelligence, and a soon to be half hearted limited ground incursion.
tk27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2006, 03:20   #9
inbredyokel
Asset
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 12
It may have been said already...

...but I'm a lazy sod and don't have the time plough through the various topics, so if this has been raised before apologies all round.
Its convenient that this has kicked off at a time when Iran is being threatened with sanctions over its nuclear programme...which it kept secret for 18 years.
World attention has been pulled from that to this.

Hezbullah and Hamas know the Israel's stance in regards to them, and have nothing to gain from this, so I'm trying to see a link in it all,...but not being that bright...I can't.

Iran of course being the biggest backers of Hezbullah and Hamas
inbredyokel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2006, 06:39   #10
Patriot
Asset
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 20
Commonly accepted....

Most of the comments from the military talking head subject matter experts pretty much agree that Iran is the puppet master and that this current round of hostilities is indeed an attempt to shift focus from their nuke program. I tend to agree.

How in the world could Hezbollah have collected all of this ordinance? I think the answer is obvious, and it would be a big mistake to focus too much energy on the situation in Lebanon, of course we should attempt to do what we can. But this is exactly the right time for us and the international community to ratchet up the pressure on Iran considerably. But can we acheive consensus?
__________________
"No matter whether we travel in big parties or little ones, each party has to keep scout 20 yards ahead, 20 yards on each flank, and 20 yards in the rear so the main body can't be surprised and wiped out."...Major Robert Rogers
Patriot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2006, 09:48   #11
Airbornelawyer
Moderator
 
Airbornelawyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk27
Sir, if its not a breach of PERSEC was it at Pembroke or GU Walsh?


Ralph Peters has an article today on the situation, Can Israel Win? Not the way it is fighting. In the article he strongly critics Olmerts lackluster start of the campaign, poor targeting and intelligence, and a soon to be half hearted limited ground incursion.
Georgetown. BTW, no one really ever calls it Walsh, just SFS.
Airbornelawyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 16:34.



Copyright 2004-2022 by Professional Soldiers ®
Site Designed, Maintained, & Hosted by Hilliker Technologies