Old 04-22-2017, 20:26   #46
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Originally Posted by Penn View Post
TJ 11B

Bingo for urban, when we were kids, we covered the entire town, even had egress an exit strategies to avoid parents and those who would curtail our little world of invisibility.

The load keeps increasing and I would argue, not for safety and minimalism to complete the transit, but for comfort sake, fire, food, not sleeping on dirt and absorbing the chill of the earth.

It reminds me of when Sandy hit the northeast, my wife and I experienced no hardship. Friends and relatives not so much. One, who is the building supervisor for a major property in NYC, that covers an entire block in Chelsea, went into lock down, as criminals tried to break in through the gates. Unable to assess the threat and defend, they knock on every door seeking arms to protect themselves. Nada, not one owner held a personal firearm...

That said, I come back to the the base element. You are an army of one.

Any encounter will most likely not end in your favor.

Therefore, a light load, because you are on the run, and need to cover 10/20 miles intervals per day, while avoiding all detection, like cooking food, fishing and hunting, unless its with a sling shot, is a death sentence. imoo
I believe that everyone has to find their happy medium between overloaded with too much junk, and comfortably loaded with what you need. The only way to do that is to walk with your load on your back, and practice living out of it.

I do not believe that you can make this journey with little to no food or by shivering all night to try and keep from freezing. Buzzing and biting insects can make you crazy. A little bad water and you are stuck for several days trying to recover while puking and crapping your guts out. A couple of bouts of this and you would be seriously ineffective, if not dead.

A JetBoil or the like can make hot water for rehydrating meals or warming beverages very quickly, without adding a lot of weight. A one ounce fishing kit might keep you moving, if you know when and where to use it. Most things I would choose to carry can be used for more than one purpose.

In the right season, your shelter and clothing might be quite light. In winter up North, not so much.

The Native American generally traveled light, but his life expectancy was very short as well.

Running will likely get you detected and rolled up. You can make 10-20 miles per day without running, if you are conditioned, plan well, and have the right terrain and route selected.

First line gear has been discussed extensively here before. First is on your person or in your pockets. Second is the next layer after that and is generally your load carrying gear. Third line is your rucksack and its contents.

Agreed with the comments about urban camouflage, but would suggest you determine in advance which underground tunnels are passable on foot, or are filled with sewage or toxic gas on a regular basis.

CI MiniMags are supersonic from a rifle, and some pistols. You may want to find out before you have to use them and they are not quiet.

Just my .02, YMMV.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2017
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Old 04-25-2017, 14:44   #47
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Originally Posted by Brush Okie View Post
As a thought how useful would a crossbow or even compound bow be for this mission? I used to archery hunt but never used a cross bow. I knew a guy that was a SEAL in Vietnam and said he used a crossbow once in Vietnam. He was not forthcoming about details but did work on the Phoenix program. Yes he was the real deal. Granted in a firefight it would be next to useless but for taking game or taking a single person out quietly, with the right shot, it might be useful.

It would not be my first choice but for the right terrain and person it might be an option. Thoughts..............
You carry the crossbow, I'll stick with my 22/45 and Silencerco Sparrow. I'll bet you a steak dinner at the RP that I won't be nearly as annoyed about the "getting there" as you will be.
A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.

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Old 04-25-2017, 15:29   #48
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Originally Posted by Brush Okie View Post
As a thought how useful would a crossbow or even compound bow be for this mission? I used to archery hunt but never used a cross bow. I knew a guy that was a SEAL in Vietnam and said he used a crossbow once in Vietnam. He was not forthcoming about details but did work on the Phoenix program. Yes he was the real deal. Granted in a firefight it would be next to useless but for taking game or taking a single person out quietly, with the right shot, it might be useful.

It would not be my first choice but for the right terrain and person it might be an option. Thoughts..............
Never doubt a SEAL,, it's the details that get fuzzy..

Widely use by the more primitive mountain tribes. Short range, good for small monkeys, birds.

Do you remember Lynda K Lance?


The Yards made her one while she was on a USO tour.

"Getting My Montagnard Crossbow (still have it)"

For portability? I think I would look at a good sling-shot and 1/4 or 3/8 steel balls.
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Old 04-25-2017, 18:16   #49
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As I checked the wx this AM making decisions for the day (affirm on leaving the dogs out in the yard, neg on riding the MC to work), I wondered how many in this scenario would take a moment to review and somehow record the forecast for the expected duration of movement. Clearly not the highest priority, but would certainly have bearing on visibility, expected traffic/patrol patterns, potential water avail, LP/concealment locations, etc.

Although I'm a near-Luddite, most would have near-instant access to a reasonably accurate extended forecast at least before departing, and there are quick ways to shorthand data in a notebook if you don't plan or expect to be using e-tools on the way.
When I'm in the boonies for more than an overnight to fish or hunt, I'll use a Rite-in-the-Rain pad to record min/max T, rainfall timing, cloud cover, and wind/direction for the duration. Let's me plan when to expect birds to hold or seek southerly aspects, when I'd be better to sleep in, when it'd be better to fish. In the days when I was into skiing and avi study, it was also nice to know expected pressure changes as well, both for the snow science part and to know when not to trust the Suunto altimeter.

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Old 04-25-2017, 23:47   #50
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Some different thoughts on movement. Depending on whether it is a mass evacuation or an independent movement?

In some cases I might presume groups or crowds of people moving away from cities with a wide spectrum of skills and abilities. How far out would they be going, some probably only going minimal distances as opposed to the 100 miles stated.

How would terrain channelize movement... In Colo. with the foot hills it would be different than the plateau at 3,400' I was at in NC.

One thought might be the ability to change appearance during movement which could be as simple as a different colored shirt, hat or pack cover. In other situations the ability to camouflage and or reduce signatures might be key during halts.

Navigation could be dead reckoning w/or wo a map or it might require local knowledge of terrain, trails and historical info. ( older overgrown trails and disused routes)? In the triple canopy forest maps and altimeters come in handy.

Small game gets rousted while traveling quietly alone or in small groups, I was thinking of the game in this area ie Rabbit and squirrel, however there have been recent out breaks of tularemia ( rabbit fever) and known episodes of rabies in this State...which makes one ponder the meds and items needed for travel. Often have been curious what supplements might come in handy in situations where you are obtaining some local food but not meeting all dietary needs ie proteins, carbs vitamins, stimulants *...
* While I enjoy pine and spruce needle tea a nice black tea or tasty coffee makes a difference at times.

In Colo. they say if you don't like the weather wait five minutes, they say there are seasons here but we have seen 80f temps a week ago and snow for tomorrow. Travel in the high country can be dicey and unpredictable often. Good skill craft can go a long way in dealing with the intangibles and as said before multi purpose equipment can make a big difference.*
* 18f temps 12" of snow a week after 70f temps a week earlier.

Thinking about the weapons load out I realized I take the same when heading to the Mt location here, while I understand things can happen on the way I regard the last movement into a space I have not controlled recently as the most likely danger zone. Being prepared might just make the difference in this scenario both for you and your crew especially in remote areas.
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"It is because they have so much to give and give it so lavishly...that men love the mountains and go back to them again and again." Sir Francis Younghusband


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Old 04-26-2017, 18:18   #51
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I have found it interesting to see what type of terrain/obstacles others have to negotiate with. It definitely makes me more pleased with my location. A straight azimuth in one direction would put me in a Forest Service mountain range in 40 miles and in another direction a Forest Service mountain range in 45 miles. Both of which would not cross thru urban areas/towns. The avoidance would be for the most part isolated farm and/or ranch houses some of which I am on a good friends basis

TR, thanks for putting this thread together and the others in the past. It really gets a guy to thinking. I have had several rucks/packs thrown together with various stuff but none specific to a situation. I will be doing some testing this summer as in a couple of months some friends and I are going to trek across the Snowy Mountains. It's not a great distance but will sure give me a feel for loads at altitude, something I haven't had a lot of experience with.
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Old 05-05-2017, 11:08   #52
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Good thread and worth following. I keep challenging my thinking on what I keep packed.

And yeah, this is my first and "great" contribution, but you'll thank me a couple miles after you drop a deuce: wet wipes, MRE TP....something. No need to be miserable. 100 miles is a long ways. I didn't see this mentioned under anyone's comfort items, but I'm getting older/dumber.

Any thoughts to small handheld radio or in this scenario is there a concern about monitoring? Comms plans sometimes overlooked.
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Old 05-05-2017, 11:46   #53
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Originally Posted by TJ11B View Post
Another option for urban area E&E could be large diameter storm drain systems underneath roads in large cities. I think the trick would be in pre-planning route to ensure accessibility and making sure you have options for "opening paths".
I'd never choose this "route' for a number of reasons. In a very large city you have two choices, get out before the human tsunami or wait until the tide recedes and get out after.

And if you live within a largely populated area you have better already made E&E plans as your options will be severely limited.
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Old 05-08-2017, 14:52   #54
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Did a little test today.

88F 38% humidity.

Flat ground out of a small city - through some really shitty portions (about 3-4 mile stretch) of a city.

Cargo shorts with snivel/cut/scrape gear filling pockets.

1liter of water, 1 cliff bar. glasses and case, wallet, .380 and 1 spare mag.

Made it 12 miles to destination in almost exactly 3 hours and I was tired - but I am a FOG. Had maybe about another 10 miles or so in me before long rest required. The old injuries, aches and pains began to visit - but I have done no training.

Time to start training.
The function of wisdom is to discriminate between good and evil.

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Old 05-08-2017, 19:44   #55
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Stealth is key. Goal is to survive 100 miles (and for me that may take a while (FOG)). 5 miles/day? Fine with me. Burn fewer calories, besides why the rush? Outfit with poncho & liner, gloves, sox, spare glasses, head cover, etc. BoB with hydration system, purification pills, salt pills, first aid kit, compass, fire starter, etc. Weapons only as needed for food and last ditch to repel boarders including: No long gun or heavy sidearm. Carry long bow (45# with 12 shafts (mixed heads incl hunting/fishing tips), survival take down .22 and 200 rds, K-bar and folding knife. Live on the flora/fauna available. Carry only the store-bought hi-protein food stuff you feel is absolutely essential. Slow and steady invisibility. I'll make it.
"Do not go gentle into that good night..."
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Old 05-08-2017, 20:01   #56
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Thumbs down

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant View Post
I'd never choose this "route' for a number of reasons. In a very large city you have two choices, get out before the human tsunami or wait until the tide recedes and get out after.

And if you live within a largely populated area you have better already made E&E plans as your options will be severely limited.

I couldn't agree more with your assessment.

If a person is unfortunate enough to count themselves among the folks who live within a major urban area and have not hit the road before the mass exodus has begun then their options are seriously limited.

My thought was that maybe underground, large diameter storm drain systems etc., if properly mapped out, could serve a purpose for anybody trying to evade organized thuggery i.e. (roadblocks, bad spots) in their effort to make to make it out of such an area.

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends", John 15:1.
“He should have armed himself if he’s gonna decorate his saloon with my friend”, Clint Eastwood, The Unforgiven.
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Old 06-06-2017, 04:43   #57
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This could be an addition to the kit. I'm buying one just for the gee-whiz factor. A slingshot that can shoot arrows, which even has a bowfishing attachment, could prove very useful for the hunting/gathering portion of the trek IMO.

"1000 days of evasion are better than one day in captivity"

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Old 09-11-2017, 23:04   #58
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Originally Posted by Flagg View Post
A couple things:

1)Has anyone seen the takedown AR15 SBRs?

Some videos of a few able to stuffed into a camera bag or vehicle centre console sized cubic volume.

What say you about the value of discretion over reduced long range performance?

Use pistol to fight to long?

2)What does everyone use for water storage/sterilisation/filtration?

I prefer 1 no more than 2 canteens, the rest in a single large bladder with a backup heavy duty rubbish bag.

For water sterilisation, I like my Katadyn portable pump filter.

I own Life Straws and Steripens. The Steripen demands high end batteries for efficacy. For me, I carry the Katadyn and Steripen as backup.


For food I carry long shelf life hugh energy density, small cube snacks.

4)Mini-Bivvy for colder areas/months?

I've used an ultra light mini-bivvy for civvie climbing in NZ and Colorado, ultra light, very small cube. I just leave my gear on bar boots/socks and hop in.

About the "takedown" AR15s. There have been a few new additions to that arena that don't add any more weight than going to a good free float barrel assembly. The barrel nut ends up being the weight add at 5.4oz vs a std at 1.2oz. But keep in mind that most free floated barrels require special barrel nuts that are also in the 5oz range. So if you're considering the difference in a free floated barrel on a fixed barrel AR vs a "quick change"/takedown setup, it might just end up being personal preference. Some manf take the barrel and free float handguard off the upper and others just pull the barrel out. So if you are considering the difference in packed length for concealing it until you get out of populated areas, see the manf literature for what you are getting. Regardless, they are "slow" to setup with parts that are not easily assembled as gross motor skill movements. The gas tube still has to fit into a small hole and if the threads don't line up, it won't work no matter who made it or how mad you get in a hurry! So they claim you can change barrels/setup in "seconds" but if it's carried in a bag with the rest of your gear, it won't come out quick when needed and won't assemble nearly fast enough. Even if you can take the extra length of just separating the upper and lower, the time it takes to assemble if you need it is too long.
If your plan is to use something else until you can assemble it without needing it RIGHT NOW!!, then a take down/quick change system might be ok for your situation, but I'd consider your circumstance very carefully.
I've built several systems as pistols and SBRs for quick change between 300BO and 5.56. They make for very short storage possibilities. But require fine motor skills to assemble.

On 300BO, out of a 10.5" barrel and subsonic ammo...D@mn they are quiet! But consider the scenario and your situation. Is the 200+gr per projectile worth it over 5.56 at 55-62gr/proj? and are you wanting to deal with problems you find now or get to your BOL and come back with help and the best tools for the job instead of the tools you have. "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" shouldn't be on your mind for this scenario.. get to your BOL as quickly and quietly as possible!

My pick on firearms:
Glock 19 with threaded barrel, suppressor and 2 spare 19rd mags. Being an SOT manf, I probably have a couple laying around.
AR15 with a 10" pencil weight barrel and suppressor (see above stuff laying around). 1-30 rd mag in it and 2 - 60rd surefire spares. And screw all this BS military ball crap! I use good hunting ammo!

Personally I think the above list is tragically under armed for nearly everything, but when you need to cover ground and "stay and fight" or "seek and destroy" is not you're mission, then it'll do. Ammo is heavy and so are firearms. Take notes for what you need to come back and deal with later. Just a pistol might also work well for you if you are good at blending both urban and wilderness. I'm just not that confident that I can let them walk past me without seeing me, so if I have to, I want to deal with them at longer range than a pistol will reasonably assure success. 10" barrel on an AR in 5.56 will do the trick out to 200yrds reliably for me. Longer ranges are a stretch but shouldn't matter for this scenario. At 200+yrds even I can move out of the AO without being seen most of the time.

And FWIW, I LOVE my full frame 1911s in 45. But carrying one long distance just isn't practical. It's like a boat anchor! I'm pretty good with it, but they just don't make them light! M1A is in the same category. It's a FANTASTIC rifle, but just too heavy to be practical for this scenario.

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