Old 05-12-2008, 18:21   #46
Pete S
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Originally Posted by BryanK View Post
And the fact that preventative maintenance on the weapon itself let alone the magazines have went the way of the dodo bird among m-day/regular troops.
Thats the fault of NCO's, not the weapon system.
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Old 05-13-2008, 09:46   #47
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The SOPMOD kit is an assemblage of accessories intended to allow SOF Soldiers to customize their weapons to meet specific mission requirements. Some of the pieces are mutually exclusive. A little research and some thought would have answered your question without attracting unfavorable attention. Weapons configurations and accessories have already been discussed extensively on this board. Use the search button.
Most of us have seen the picture of Paul Kim (SureFire) with everything mounted on an M-4; you don't need to waste time looking for it.
My apologies, I didn't mean for the stuff to sound ignorant...

I know a lot of the gear is mission specific on some cases, but it's just looking at some of the SOPMOD things that some servicemen stack up onto it, it just looks crazy...

A Soldier I'm friends with in Naray Afghanistan, was given an opportunity to hold a SOPMOD, and it weighed in at 27lbs when he put it onto a weight scale, he asked the QP why he had so much on it, and the QP said because it looked cool...

He had a taser, laser sight, ACOG, some other scope mounted in front of the ACOG, he just had a bunch of stuff on it... (My friend said it was like something off of Star Wars)

I know he's a conventional Infantryman, and they don't get SOPMODs, but the stuff just really caught my interest...

I apologize for my ignorance...
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Old 10-13-2009, 15:39   #48
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Most of the stuff I "know" about the M4 is related to what I've read about ballistics and tests comparing the M4 to the HK416 and others in an attempt to replace it.
I have no real experience with any AR series rifle to delve into practical questions... yet.

As for the comment earlier about the .223 round vs the 5.56x45 - The .223 is the civilian equivalent, BUT they are not the same as anyone who knows anything about anything will tell you. The 5.56 is a higher grain round which yields greater pressure. Due to this, the leade and case thickness of the two rounds differ. What does this mean to Joe? The bullet/barrel match is critical in achieving accuracy, range, and lifespan/reliability. Use the designated round for the designated barrel.

I 'think' the issued M4 has a twist rate of 1 in 7, however I could be wrong. I've heard 1 in 8.5 as well. I would however say I'm pretty sure that the twist rate is faster than 1 in 9 to allow better stabilization in higher grain rounds to achieve range and accuracy.

As for flaws? I know the main differences between the 416 and M4 are that the 416 is a Gas-Piston operated rifle as opposed to merely just gas. Yada yada yada... greater reliability all around from practical use to lifespan.

I know most guys that shoot professionally get trigger jobs and free float hand-guards installed, and I see a lot of charging handle products. This would lead me to believe that these areas need attention.

Please enlighten me.

Also as for "rail gear", I would imagine that whatever "gear" is needed to get the job done is used. No more, No less. Whatever the mission requires. If a piece of gear can be utilized and the cost/benefit is positive (in this case cost being weight and space), it probably gets used. If it's unnecessary, leave it at home.
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Old 10-13-2009, 15:58   #49
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Most of the stuff I "know" about the M4 is related to what I've read about ballistics and tests comparing the M4 to the HK416 and others in an attempt to replace it.
I have no real experience with any AR series rifle to delve into practical questions... yet.

As for the comment earlier about the .223 round vs the 5.56x45 - The .223 is the civilian equivalent, BUT they are not the same as anyone who knows anything about anything will tell you. The 5.56 is a higher grain round which yields greater pressure. Due to this, the leade and case thickness of the two rounds differ. What does this mean to Joe? The bullet/barrel match is critical in achieving accuracy, range, and lifespan/reliability. Use the designated round for the designated barrel.

I 'think' the issued M4 has a twist rate of 1 in 7, however I could be wrong. I've heard 1 in 8.5 as well. I would however say I'm pretty sure that the twist rate is faster than 1 in 9 to allow better stabilization in higher grain rounds to achieve range and accuracy.

As for flaws? I know the main differences between the 416 and M4 are that the 416 is a Gas-Piston operated rifle as opposed to merely just gas. Yada yada yada... greater reliability all around from practical use to lifespan.

I know most guys that shoot professionally get trigger jobs and free float hand-guards installed, and I see a lot of charging handle products. This would lead me to believe that these areas need attention.

Please enlighten me.

Also as for "rail gear", I would imagine that whatever "gear" is needed to get the job done is used. No more, No less. Whatever the mission requires. If a piece of gear can be utilized and the cost/benefit is positive (in this case cost being weight and space), it probably gets used. If it's unnecessary, leave it at home.
You and Draco have a lot of easily verifiable facts mixed up and just plain wrong. I would have to see a 27 lb. M-4.

Stop talking about this, you are making my head hurt.

TR
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Old 10-15-2009, 05:39   #50
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...Or is it Bad Fire Discipline and Leadership?

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/005060.html

Some of the comment's will make your hair hurt.

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Old 12-21-2009, 04:08   #51
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Originally Posted by BMT View Post
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/005060.html

Some of the comment's will make your hair hurt.

BMT
I'm not sure where some of these people are getting there information from. Clearly with how long the M4 and all it's variants have been produced there is nothing about it that is classified information. I will be the first to say I don't know everything about the system but, with having grown up shooting various types of weapons I will say that a GPU (Gas Piston Upper). Along with routine cleaning/maintenance would solve many of the problems that people are complaining about.

My platoon also runs the company arms room. We regularly see half a**ed cleaning jobs from NCO's and their soldiers alike. I've had NCO's complain to me about the standard of cleanliness we uphold. As I see it many NCO's and soldier have become lazy failing to uphold some of the simplest standards.

As far as the M4 goes even the greatest weapons have room for improvement somewhere. Yes with the Gas Impingement System the M4 is one of the dirtiest (carbon fouling) weapons I have used but, that also falls to the type of powder used in our ammunition. It is neither clean nor is it a beautifully performing round. It is cost effective and it does the job plain and simple.

The current variation of the M4 that is being issued now looks like the Army paid some amount of attention to its notes and took the SOPMOD variation down to its base level. A two piece/four rail M1913 picatinny rail hand guard and a spring loaded back up sight comes standard. The back up sight is nothing but, a spring loaded post with a standard M16/M4 type rear sight aperture.

I seem to always have trouble getting use to a new weapon. Once I do get use to it I generally replace the trigger mechanism with something a little more crisp and precise.

Like I said before, I don't know everything about the weapon and I am not sure where some of these people are getting their information from. I have never heard of a 1 in 8.5 twist on any standard issue M4 to my knowledge it's always been 1 in 7 right hand twist. You were right sir after reading that article and it's comments not only does my hair hurt but, everything from my neck up hurts.

p.s. Yes I blew my own horn a bit sorry ahead of time.

Rant Over
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Old 01-01-2010, 22:42   #52
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Well, I didn't see any of this stuff on here, so I guess I'll put up what I've learned so far about the M4 weapon system (I'm just a dumb Private coming out of Red Phase though, with no prior experience with weapons). I'll try to stick with slightly less obvious things.

1.The M4 that I am using has a maximum listed range for point targets of 500m; I have been told that between 600-700m is also possible. I've only ever hit things at 300m, which is what my rifle is zeroed to, and that was off a sandbag.

2. When I smooth my trigger, I make sure to release slowly and try to listen for a click that lets me know I can pull the trigger again and not have to put as much pressure on.

3. There is enough weight on the front end that when I point post and sprawl I have to pull back pretty hard with my firing hand to keep the butt in my shoulder so I don't end with the muzzle in the dirt, and me in the front leaning rest position.

4. When I clean my M4 the star chamber is always dirty. Always. So is the firing pin, and most of the bolt and bolt carrier assembly.

5. If I am in the prone unsupported position and allow my magazine to rest on the ground, I might be able to hit Fast Freddy. Not much else though. (Not really M4 specific, I just saw an earlier comment about mag length)

6. If I keep my weapon clean, the actual weapon will not fail me. If I get a double feed in my M4 it is usually because my magazine was not seated right or has a spring problem. If SPORTS doesn't work with my M4 my best best is to drop my magazine and try to pull back on my charging handle. If that's stuck, try to pull back and simultaneously stick a couple fingers up inside the magazine well and diddle around. I'd like a QP to give an opinion on this one, cause it makes me nervous.

7. If I am trying to engage targets at range with my M4, I keep my buttstock fully extended.

For the M68:

1. Keep the red dot as low illum as possible. The instruction I was given was to train your eye to the lowest possible light.

2. If your red dot jumps around inside the scope, first assume that your fundamentals are wrong. If you concentrate hard and it still jumps around, your elevation and windage adjustment springs may be screwed up. Don't waste 3 days on the zero range figuring this out, because then you will have to qualify with someone elses weapon, that may or may not be properly zeroed.

3. I prefer to keep both eyes open with targets up to 75m, and close my left eye during my breathing cycle for targets farther than that.


I haven't done MOUT or anything like that yet. I realize that most QPs will just get a laugh out of this. But I figured that since I stumbled into this thread, and I am actually in training now, I was under an imperative to try to give answers. So I did.
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Old 01-08-2010, 23:42   #53
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Daniel defense

My team got the daniel defense 10.5 in barrels before our last deployment to the stan and they performed extremely well. Everybody was tagging steel and personnel out to 600m no problem. SOPMOD DD upper is Free floating and comes with front flip up site and runs like a champion. Every-time we have a shot out barrel and it fails a gauge, we send it in to get re-barreled. I am not convinced when this process happens anything really gets done. When I got the DD upper I think it was the first time ever in the military I received a brand new barrel which is sad but Im glad it happened a lot of bad guys in the dirt courtesy of those little guys.
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Old 01-11-2010, 01:28   #54
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My team got the daniel defense 10.5 in barrels before our last deployment to the stan and they performed extremely well. Everybody was tagging steel and personnel out to 600m no problem. SOPMOD DD upper is Free floating and comes with front flip up site and runs like a champion. Every-time we have a shot out barrel and it fails a gauge, we send it in to get re-barreled. I am not convinced when this process happens anything really gets done. When I got the DD upper I think it was the first time ever in the military I received a brand new barrel which is sad but Im glad it happened a lot of bad guys in the dirt courtesy of those little guys.
That's a long shot out of a 10.5" barrel........
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Old 01-11-2010, 21:08   #55
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You are right! I had my doubts at first as well but I drove some steel out to that range slapped on my ELCAN optic and sure enough. That Sweet Ping That Everyone Loves To Hear! I was sold!
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Old 01-12-2010, 07:04   #56
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Originally Posted by Soak60 View Post
Well, I didn't see any of this stuff on here, so I guess I'll put up what I've learned so far about the M4 weapon system (I'm just a dumb Private coming out of Red Phase though, with no prior experience with weapons). I'll try to stick with slightly less obvious things.

1.The M4 that I am using has a maximum listed range for point targets of 500m; I have been told that between 600-700m is also possible. I've only ever hit things at 300m, which is what my rifle is zeroed to, and that was off a sandbag.

2. When I smooth my trigger, I make sure to release slowly and try to listen for a click that lets me know I can pull the trigger again and not have to put as much pressure on.

3. There is enough weight on the front end that when I point post and sprawl I have to pull back pretty hard with my firing hand to keep the butt in my shoulder so I don't end with the muzzle in the dirt, and me in the front leaning rest position.

4. When I clean my M4 the star chamber is always dirty. Always. So is the firing pin, and most of the bolt and bolt carrier assembly.

5. If I am in the prone unsupported position and allow my magazine to rest on the ground, I might be able to hit Fast Freddy. Not much else though. (Not really M4 specific, I just saw an earlier comment about mag length)

6. If I keep my weapon clean, the actual weapon will not fail me. If I get a double feed in my M4 it is usually because my magazine was not seated right or has a spring problem. If SPORTS doesn't work with my M4 my best best is to drop my magazine and try to pull back on my charging handle. If that's stuck, try to pull back and simultaneously stick a couple fingers up inside the magazine well and diddle around. I'd like a QP to give an opinion on this one, cause it makes me nervous.

7. If I am trying to engage targets at range with my M4, I keep my buttstock fully extended.

For the M68:

1. Keep the red dot as low illum as possible. The instruction I was given was to train your eye to the lowest possible light.

2. If your red dot jumps around inside the scope, first assume that your fundamentals are wrong. If you concentrate hard and it still jumps around, your elevation and windage adjustment springs may be screwed up. Don't waste 3 days on the zero range figuring this out, because then you will have to qualify with someone elses weapon, that may or may not be properly zeroed.

3. I prefer to keep both eyes open with targets up to 75m, and close my left eye during my breathing cycle for targets farther than that.


I haven't done MOUT or anything like that yet. I realize that most QPs will just get a laugh out of this. But I figured that since I stumbled into this thread, and I am actually in training now, I was under an imperative to try to give answers. So I did.
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Old 02-05-2010, 09:58   #57
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NcStar 3-9X42 P4 Sniper Reticle Scope

Hope I'm asking in the right forum, Has anyone got experience using this optic on their M-4's and if so could I get your feedback. Thank You

Open Target Turrets
Fully Multi-Coated Lenses
Built in sunshade
Quick focus eyepiece
Bullet drop compensator calibrated for the .223 cartridge with a 55 grain bullet
Reticles illuminate in Red or Green with multiple brightness setting
Integrated Quick Release Weaver style/ Picatinny mounting system

SPECIFICATIONS:
MAGNIFICATION: 3X-9X
TUBE DIA. N/A
OBJECTIVE DIA. (MM) 42.00
FOV (FEET AT 100 YARDS) 36.8-12.0
EYE RELIEF (INCH) 2.0
EXIT PUPIL(MM) 9.3-3.1
RETICLE: P4 SNIPER
N.W (OZ.) 16.7
LENGTH (INCH) 7.54
CLICK VALUE : 1/4 M.O.A.
EXTERIOR FINISH: MATTE BLACK
LENS COATING: GREEN
MOUNT:INTEGRATED (WEAVER STYLE QUICK RELEASE)
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Old 02-05-2010, 17:50   #58
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Communist Chinese POS.

OTOH, it is cheap.

With optics, you generally get what you pay for.

TR
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:27   #59
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On Gas - The whole "gas-operated" term has gotten thrown around a couple of times and it's important to clarify that gas systems cover a wide spectrum of operations (gas direct, gas tappet, gas blast). There's nothing necessarily wrong with gas direct systems but the M4 just doesn't have any way to remedy sluggish firing without cleaning out the gas tube. Just as an example, the M240 has a gas regulator that can be adjusted to allow more gas to engage the rod assembly which gives more power to the whole operation of the system. It's a quick fix for which will hold you over until you have the time to remedy the situation 100%. It'd be a great if there was a gas regulator on the M4 that could be quickly adjusted when it starts to get sluggish from carbon build-up.

Back to the .223/5.56 - The lower receiver is stamped with all the manufacturing information to include what the barrel that particular lower came out of the factory mounted to. If it's stamped .223 then it was made to only fire the .223 Remington and firing the hotter burning 5.56 will damage it. If it's stamped 5.56 it will fire both since it's made to handle that hotter burn.

Magazines - The issue magazines are "semi-disposable". Cheap enough to be easily replaceable so that damaged ones could be turned in for new ones without much fuss. The problem is we expect them to last forever. Compare that to the AK-47 mags which are actually made to last a lifetime. Country of origin can tell you a lot about a weapon. On one hand you have the U.S. who weren't worried about spending the extra money to replace something as simple as magazines. On the other hand you have the USSR who would sooner make a more reliable magazine that didn't have to be replaced over and over again in order to save money in the long run.

Misfeeds - The extractor could be failing, leaving the spent round in the chamber and preventing another round from being chambered. There was an issue with the extractor spring on early M4/M16s. It was replaced with the little black donut on later models and the early ones were sent in for the fix.

Magazines and Misfeeds - If you're not getting any misfeeds when the magazine is full but start getting misfeeds toward the end of the magazine it's probably the spring. A full magazine is going to have more tension in the spring compared to a half magazine. There could also be an issue with the follower. It may be beat up and catching inside the magazine which will result in a misfeed. There can also be problems with the lips of the magazine. If the lips are bent or damaged then rounds aren't going to feed properly.

Maintain your magazines and you'll be fine. Stretch out the spring a bit to keep it from "memorizing" it's compressed shape and losing it's tension. Compare the lips of all your magazines and look for inconsistencies. Or if you can afford it just buy plastic magazines. They're durable, light, and the internals are made better as well.

For Soak60 - As far as shoving your fingers into places and diddling around there is only one place that is necessary and it's not your magazine well. If you have to do remedial action then just flip your weapon on its side and LOOK through the ejection port into the chamber. Then you can start fixing it however you need to. If it's something that needs more than a shake and a slap just use a leatherman. Your fingers will thank you.

The "click" - That click is from the disconnector reengaging. Yes, it means you can "pull the trigger again" but listening for that click shouldn't affect the pressure you're applying to the trigger. Unlike the M9, every squeeze of the trigger is the same on the M4. The first shot doesn't set the hammer (like with the M9), charging the weapon does.

Rambling complete.

Last edited by Tegboarder; 02-26-2010 at 02:32.
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Old 02-26-2010, 10:43   #60
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Tegboarder, I do not see from your intro or profile where you acquired all of your weapons knowledge that you are dispensing.

BTW, it doesn't matter what is stamped on the lower. The barrel is the only part that is different (sometimes) between .223 and 5.56 ARs. The "hotter burn", which is actually higher pressure affects only the barrel. There are other errors in your info.

Are you an 18B now?

TR
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