Mexican drug lords retaliate.

[ZonieDiver]

Were it not for the demand for drugs created in the good old USA, Mexico and Colombia, et al would not have the problems they have. For us to think up "hard core" scenarios to solve the problem there when we refuse to deal with OUR problem here is the real problem... IMHO.

Originally Posted by ZonieDiver

Were it not for the demand for drugs created in the good old USA, Mexico and Colombia, et al would not have the problems they have. For us to think up "hard core" scenarios to solve the problem there when we refuse to deal with OUR problem here is the real problem... IMHO.

One prime example of this comes to mind right away...

[mojaveman]

I learned once that certian American chemical companies make money from the Colombian drug trade because their chemicals are used to process the cocaine that eventually makes it's way here.

Crazy World isn't it?

Originally Posted by Marina

..., but the US Constitution protects US citizens in the US. I'm OK with manhunting sans borders. Can capture but need due process for Amcits within the US. Otherwise we become a security state or lawless wild, wild west.

That said, the jig is up with transnational syndicates including AQ and narco-terror HVTs who exploit the gaps in LE and governance to do their nasty work.

Now I gotta go check my pepper mill.

And what if the US Constitution ceases to protect US citizens? LE does not prevent crime, LE reports crime. LE is effective as a deterrent as long as citizens respect the law, criminals tend not too.

And what about the 'wild west'? Civil authority was in the hands of civil citizens. Criminals feared armed citizens much more than US Marshals. A rope and a tall tree was the biggest deterrent of all.

WD

p.s., I am welcoming debate.

Originally Posted by mojaveman

I was told once that executives at DOW Chemical make a tremendous amount of money from the Columbian drug trade because their chemicals are used to process the cocaine that eventually makes it's way here.

Crazy World isn't it?

DOW Chemical is a publicly traded company, share holders receive the reward for stock performance. Executive are bonus'd by stock performance. It is legal, but is it right? How do you balance a company who does many other wonderful things with chemical development against those who use certain chemicals to process drugs. You can not hold DOW responsible for illegal drugs any more than you can blame a gun manufacturer for homicides for #2 pencils for illiteracy.

[LarryW]

(from Wet Dog) Why must we limit our activities to just outside the US? Seems wrong is still wrong, despite an unseen line drawn in the dirt. If the govt., either one, US or Mexico can't or won't fix, then it must be the 'good' citizens of both countries to route out the cartels.

If we make the business landscape so terrible for them to do business, then they will take their business elsewhere.

Concur completely with Wet Dog. W/o desecrating our Constitution it is time for citizens of civilization to stop the insanity against the innocents. The foul digits must be cut off. The charter of civilization allows nothing less. Find them, verify their deeds, then summarily remove them.

As for what waits in the wings look to the drug cartel organization in Afghanistan. Now look to the growth of Islam in Central America, esp in the Tabasco and Chiapas regions. It's not waiting anymore.

IMHO anyways.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by mojaveman

I was told once that executives at DOW Chemical make a tremendous amount of money from the Columbian drug trade because their chemicals are used to process the cocaine that eventually makes it's way here.

Crazy World isn't it?

I find this very hard to believe.

The production of cocaine that I have seen did not use too many pharmaceutical or high-grade chemicals. Total annual cocaine HCL production for the entire planet usually hovers around 700 tons, IIRC. That would be a drop in the bucket for Dow in terms of scale.

TR

[Box]

DOW is a big company... lets blame them anyway.
Pres. Bush caused Katrina, DOW chemicals causes drug addiction.
Rich people are bad...

[Sten]

Originally Posted by ZonieDiver

Were it not for the demand for drugs created in the good old USA, Mexico and Colombia, et al would not have the problems they have. For us to think up "hard core" scenarios to solve the problem there when we refuse to deal with OUR problem here is the real problem... IMHO.

This is the long and the short of the issue.

My question is, if we were to go downrange and start just killing guys that we think are involved in the drug trade don't we just become a really big cartel with nukes?

[Peregrino]

Legalize it or start summary executions. The middle ground is an untenable "status quo" where the current prohibition mentality creates money and power for very unsavory characters and people of weak character are exploited like the sheep they are. Illegal drugs corrupt everybody they touch - on both sides of the law. How long before we get another generation of Kennedys financed by drug money this time?

[mojaveman]

Originally Posted by wet dog

DOW Chemical is a publicly traded company, share holders receive the reward for stock performance. Executive are bonus'd by stock performance. It is legal, but is it right? How do you balance a company who does many other wonderful things with chemical development against those who use certain chemicals to process drugs. You can not hold DOW responsible for illegal drugs any more than you can blame a gun manufacturer for homicides for #2 pencils for illiteracy.

I wasn't trying to finger anyone but just trying to shed some light on an enormous and complicated problem. European chemical companies do the same thing. They don't sell directly to the producers of cocaine, they sell to third party buyers and the chemicals eventually make their way to South America. It's true. Perhaps the entire business could be regulated better than it already is.

[mojaveman]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I find this very hard to believe.

The production of cocaine that I have seen did not use too many pharmaceutical or high-grade chemicals. Total annual cocaine HCL production for the entire planet usually hovers around 700 tons, IIRC. That would be a drop in the bucket for Dow in terms of scale.

TR

It was enlightening to me when I heard it. I have a close relative who is a narcotics agent here in the Golden State and deals with the problem intimately. Chemicals are also used by the Mexican Mafia who are probably the Worlds largest producer of Methamphetamine.

[Peregrino]

We've been regulating precursor chemicals in the cocaine producing regions since the begining. I worked source interdiction in the 80's, other members here are still involved in the charade. The chemicals are legal, have legitimate industrial uses, etc., etc. And you can find the production sites by following the pollution upstream to the source, usually a clandestine lab surrounded by piles of rotting waste and empty 55 gal chemical drums. In Bolivia, the chemicals used to be smuggled/diverted from Brazil by the commercial truck load. (One of the unintended consequences of the road building programs to "open up" the undeveloped interior of the respective countries.) Until we remove the incentive (US consumption and the money derived from it) producers will find a way to satisfy demand. It's basic capitalism - cost/benefit analysis. Increase the risk and/or reduce the profit and the problem changes too. Unfortunately, Mexico's violence problem is hostage to our inability to deal with the consumption demand. Given the current administration (and the overall ineffective actions of previous administrations) I don't see any changes coming down the pipe. The violence will get worse until honest people have had enough or WE address the root causes. Legalize the crap and treat it like alcohol. (And yes - I'm personally familiar with the destruction drugs do. You can't save the world; you can't even save a lot of the individuals who've immersed themselves in the poison. Cut the losses and move on!) My .02

[mojaveman]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

We've been regulating precursor chemicals in the cocaine producing regions since the begining. I worked source interdiction in the 80's, other members here are still involved in the charade. The chemicals are legal, have legitimate industrial uses, etc., etc. And you can find the production sites by following the pollution upstream to the source, usually a clandestine lab surrounded by piles of rotting waste and empty 55 gal chemical drums. In Bolivia, the chemicals used to be smuggled/diverted from Brazil by the commercial truck load. (One of the unintended consequences of the road building programs to "open up" the undeveloped interior of the respective countries.) Until we remove the incentive (US consumption and the money derived from it) producers will find a way to satisfy demand. It's basic capitalism - cost/benefit analysis. Increase the risk and/or reduce the profit and the problem changes too. Unfortunately, Mexico's violence problem is hostage to our inability to deal with the consumption demand. Given the current administration (and the overall ineffective actions of previous administrations) I don't see any changes coming down the pipe. The violence will get worse until honest people have had enough or WE address the root causes. Legalize the crap and treat it like alcohol. (And yes - I'm personally familiar with the destruction drugs do. You can't save the world; you can't even save a lot of the individuals who've immersed themselves in the poison. Cut the losses and move on!) My .02

I agree.

Look at the war on drugs and how effective it is. If I am correct we intercept less than 5% of what comes across the borders yet it costs us billions of dollars to maintain. I don't use drugs but sometimes ponder how much revenue could be generated by legalizing and taxing them.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

Legalize it or start summary executions. The middle ground is an untenable "status quo" ........

Legalize Drugs - and then tax them like tabacco products.

A private company can still prohibit drug use if it likes, as some do with drinking and smoking.

The War on Drugs has failed and it's now causing more crime than it's worth.

Just my opinion.

Pete