SF Changing

Ak68w · 03-21-2008, 21:47

There's an older man I know who was SF back in Vietnam. He was a Commo guy in 7th Group. We got to talking about SF and his career in it. He said he joined up a month after he turned 17, did MOS training at Fort Gordon, and his MOS was an 05E (if I remember right)-a commo guy. He said it took him awhile to make his E-5, and most astoundingly, he said that when he went through, Q-Course was only 15 weeks long!

This leads me to ask the QP's on this forum (especially the older gents)---how has the SF chaned since you've been in, and if anyone is up for it, where do you see it going (I know, been asked before, but it would add to the part of how its changed, I think)?

lksteve · 03-21-2008, 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ak68w

...and his MOS was an 05E (if I remember right)-a commo guy. He said it took him awhile to make his E-5, and most astoundingly, he said that when he went through, Q-Course was only 15 weeks long!

05E was a voice radio operator, IIRC...not an SF skill, so he would have had to learn Morse Code to become an 05B...I don't know about a 15 week training group for someone who wasn't trained in IMC, but it was sixteen weeks when I went through in '76...

Speaking only for myself, I'd appreciate it if you changed your signature line...I find it annoying and unrepresentative...

And as far as your question regarding SF and how it has "changed" us...? The search button is your friend...

Read more, search often, post less...IMNSHO...

Ak68w · 03-21-2008, 22:31

Thanks for the reply, Sir. I didn't mean how the SFs changed you per se (though I have read that post). I meant how the SF has changed since you were in. For example, since I've been in the Army, boot camp has changed from 9 weeks to 10.

On the issue of the SL, roger that Sir , changing it now. I meant no offense, and I appoligize.

LongWire · 03-22-2008, 02:45

You really have no understanding of the depths that you are asking us to expound upon. I would suggest using the search button, and then maybe buying some books and reading the history found within those, and maybe learning what they do down in SWCS today, then forget all that and drive forward with your goal. All that really matters is the Road in front of YOU.

Honestly, you've been in for how long now, and they have added 1 week to Basic since then. We really don't have the time, patience or tolerance level, to line out how many changes that the course has made throughout the years. Im sure that maybe there is a timeline somewhere, but I've yet to see one. The last few years would look like a Richter Scale in California just from looking at it!!!!!

**Pete** · 03-22-2008, 04:07

The course is a lot longer than it was in older days.

So you go "Gee, I must be a lot better trained than the old farts".

Not so. Language School and SERE were not a part of the course in the old days. Nor was any NCO PD courses or classes. You were expected to know Infantry Tactics when you showed up and if you were fresh off the street you had one chance to learn on the fly.

The Old Course was Patrol (Phase I), MOS (Phase II) and UW (Phase III). Commo had BROC and Medics - well they never graduated with a class they started with

. SFAS was added to fine tune selection, then a couple of years later Language school was added onto the end.

Other than that you came back to the school house or out to "Big Army" for other classes and courses.

So short course with returns to the school house or pack everything into a long course and send them on their way? They picked pack everything into a long course.

Me? I found the Engineer Advanced Course up at Ft Belvoir to be right nice.

lksteve · 03-22-2008, 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete

The Old Course was Patrol (Phase I), MOS (Phase II) and UW (Phase III). Commo had BROC and Medics - well they never graduated with a class they started with

. SFAS was added to fine tune selection, then a couple of years later Language school was added onto the end..

Being not quite as vintage as Pete, Phase I was a rather entertaining mix of land nav instruction and a charming seventeen day walk, alone, at night, through the Uwharrie National Forest...

**Pete** · 03-22-2008, 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by lksteve

Being not quite as vintage as Pete, Phase I was a rather entertaining mix of land nav instruction and a charming seventeen day walk, alone, at night, through the Uwharrie National Forest...

I just lumped the main theme into my post.

After PT in Phase I just sit down, open your brain and the fire hose was turned on. Land Nav, Small unit tactics, Survival, Rappelling, Water ops/slide for life, Rucking, The Big Nasty and littler friends, etc, etc - no down time - and then the FTX started.

But back to my main point - I think the powers that be considered it cost and time effective, since they had the basic student under their control anyway, to just add in the courses they would be coming back for anyway in the next few years.

Both methods have pro's and con's.

I liked the coming back method because it allowed SF guys to mix with troops from other Groups and share experiences.

I did like the idea of "Team schools" like the old SOT because it allowed all (most) of the individuals on a Team to share the same experience. Although STRAT RECON pretty much sucked the big one

all the way around.

At one time 5 of the 9 active SF Battalions were at Ft Bragg. Once the 7th departs the vast majority of battalions will be off Bragg, well it's been that way for a while anyway. Throw in Op Tempo and how hard will it be to get "the right guy" back for a centralized 18 series school.

A lot of things the CSMs and SGMs need to be thinking about.

Just my opinion of course.

Pete

I do realize there are new subject's in the course and I am not addressing them.

lksteve · 03-22-2008, 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete

Just my opinion of course.

Thanks, Pete...there's so much us younger guys can learn from you vintage folk...

2018commo · 03-22-2008, 09:10

In the guard team structure was long term and cross generational. It seamed just about everyone had experienced a different version of the course, and after a while you could tell their stories better than they could. I remember hearing that the US hockey team beat the USSR, we though it was TAC propaganda! The course will always be changing as we are all trainers and thinkers.

**Pete** · 03-22-2008, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lksteve

Thanks, Pete...there's so much us younger guys can learn from you vintage folk...

You and I were bottled about the same time.

I like the guys talking about "back in the old days" - THE 90s

.

mark46th · 03-22-2008, 16:26

When I went through in 1971, we had Phase I at Mackall(4 Weeks). I went through this in February. Phase II was MOS- In my case, 05B. I knew code when I got there so it was much shorter for me, I passed 15 WPM and caught a class going for the field training up in Uwharrie. Then on to Phase III- SF tactics (UW). I finished this in June of 1971 and was assigned to the 5th Group. So, as far as training goes, yes, things have changed. But the mission remains the same...

And enough of this Old Guy crap...Age and experience will always win over youth and talent...

**Jack Moroney (RIP)** · 03-22-2008, 17:31

The program has changed over the years, some for the better some for other reasons. The one constant that has not changed is the commitment and character of the SF soldier. While each was a product of various programs they all matured at the hands, and sometimes the boot, of the troops on the team regardless of the creds that they initially carried across the teamroom threshold.

Ak68w · 03-24-2008, 14:34

In his book Roughneck 91, retired SFC Frank Antenori repeatedly became frustrated with the fact that his chain of command simply wasn't willing to take the risks needed to accomplish the mission. Is this an isolated incident, or do you see this as a large trend? I hope I'm not out of line for asking this.

**The Reaper** · 03-24-2008, 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ak68w

In his book Roughneck 91, retired SFC Frank Antenori repeatedly became frustrated with the fact that his chain of command simply wasn't willing to take the risks needed to accomplish the mission. Is this an isolated incident, or do you see this as a large trend? I hope I'm not out of line for asking this.

You have a lot of questions.

Do you like living on the edge?

TR

Ak68w · 03-24-2008, 15:34

Yes Sir I guess I do. Do I like living on the edge? I'd say that I'm by no means an adrenaline junkie (I study math all day for Gods sake!), but I do feel that the mission comes first, and if that means taking risks, so be it.

Now, I think that's extremely different from putting yourself at unnecessary risk just for the sake of "bein' cool" and "hey, I did this on Halo 2 once!" Those people are best off staying on the damn video game...they don't get me killed that way!

I hope that answers your question, Sir.