decision making process of when to draw

[logisticsclerk]

Greetings to all,

This is an interesting take on the subject. What do you think?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8493092.stm

Originally Posted by logisticsclerk

Greetings to all,

This is an interesting take on the subject. What do you think?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8493092.stm

From the article...

The work aims to answer why the first to draw his gun in a shoot-out was often the one to get shot.

My answer, as it applies to me only is.

"Fast is not fast, slow is smooth and smooth is fast".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awskKWzjlhk

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by logisticsclerk

Greetings to all,

This is an interesting take on the subject. What do you think?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8493092.stm

Because the first to draw was probably the criminal or an amateur trying to gun down a pro.

I do not think that reaction time has anything to do with it. You cannot ourdraw a guy with his gun already in his hand. He is inside your OODA Loop. All you can hope to do is to be more effective when you finally manage to take action. All of the firearms and reaction time research I have ever seen indicates that the person initiating the action is almost always faster than the reaction, since the initiator has no response to beat, and the reactor does. Watch a drag race. If you were keying off of the movement of your opponent's car, rather than the tree, you would be at a significant disadvantage. Time to recognize and decide to act adds several tenths of a second to the response.

Drawing is not the same as hitting. I would not expect the Brit media to understand that difference.

"Speed is fine, accuracy is final."

TR

[Kenneth White]

Decision making process of when to draw, or not draw. I can only speak for myself. I carry a firearm as a part of my job. I am goven by the laws of the State of Georgia.
I pick my firearm up from my lock box. I have the only key. I check all parts of my firearm. It all way loaded. I place it in it holder. I secure it in that holder. I do not take it from it holder. I make a secure DZ around my firearm. I do not take it out to show to no one. I do not allow any one to get with-in the safe zone I have made around my firearm. When I return home. I check my firearm. I unload it. I clean it. I reload it. I return it to it lock box.
If I pull my firearm, it will be for one reason and one reason only. I have made up my mine. I am going home at the end of my duty day. Someone eles, due to their action, will not be going home. If you have a legal right to pull it you better use it.
This is not legal advice. I don't draw, and show. If I am forced to draw that force will die.
Ken

[DonovanM]

All of the questions I had regarding when to draw as a CPL holder were answered by reading Massad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme" and David Kenik's "Armed Response".

Please for the love of all that is holy have all of your questions answered before carrying a firearm in public. As was mentioned earlier, hesitation is not your friend.

Originally Posted by logisticsclerk

...

Great username. Kind of like having "SLEEPR" as your license plate

[moutinman]

Great thread subject that I think many who carry don't think through fully. The two simple rules I have always gone by with regards to concealed carry are this:

1. Draw only if I'm going to use it.

2. If I have to think, "should I draw?" then I probably shouldn't. If your life is in imminent danger, you will know it.

Just my thoughts.....

[rthorne57]

Sorry to bring up an older thread, but I would like to share a personal experience with you all just to give you an idea of what is possible. I'll try to make it short..

I'm driving to work on a Monday morning, carrying a Glock 19 on my hip as usual.
It was a nice cool day with light traffic so I had the windows down while cruising when a driver and male occupant of a Dodge truck pull of next to me. I'll spare the details, but he had some bad road rage for some unknown reason. I'm a few blocks from work as we come to a red light and there's not a car in sight. In my head I thought, "If this a-hole is going to do anything, this is where it's going to happen." As we come to a stop, I'm watching him out of the corner of my eye, trying not to make eye contact. I see the driver door swing open, and I immediately unholstered my gun straight up (like a low ready but high on my chest), keeping my finger indexed and muzzle pointed down. As soon as the driver's foot hit the ground and he looked in my window, he froze. He slowly crawled back in his truck and proceeded to make a right turn. I turned left to go to work and I thought it was all over.

15min later my decision to draw would come back to bite me in the ass, BIG TIME. Two rookie county constables came in the office after they ID'd my vehicle outside and immediately had me put my hands on the desk AT GUN POINT while his partner disarmed me and put me in cuffs. I found out that the two occupants of the truck reported to the police that I was pointing the gun at them and turned the story around saying I was the one with road rage, cussing at yelling at them and that "they were in fear for their lives". I made the mistake of trying to talk with the police thinking they would see the truth and maybe give me a slap on the wrist, but I could see they already made up their minds and were treating me like a damn criminal and threatening me with all kinds of shit. The two males came to my work and ID'd me as the driver and I was placed under arrest. The arresting charge was Aggrevated Assault with a Deadly Weapon!!! which is a class 2 Felony. That sounds lovely, doesn't it?? I spent 2 days in jail, and got out on $30,000 bond. In court, I was able to get the charge reduced to a misdemeanor Deadly Conduct. Geez, that sounds a lot better! I might have been able to get the hole charge dropped but it was 2 words against mine and I got royally screwed. And the charge came with a bonus too - 2 years probation, seeing a probation officer every month, 80 community service, and my gun was destroyed as evidence. Not to mention stripped of my CHL and I have to wait 5years to reapply!!!

So, like some have said, displaying a gun won't necessarily get you out of a situation. If you have to think about drawing, then you probably shouldn't. It should be a reaction instead. I hope this has opened your eyes a bit. Don't expect LEOs to take your side and think they will trust you because you have a carry licence.

Originally Posted by rthorne57

....and the charge came with a bonus too - 2 years probation, seeing a probation officer every month, 80 community service, and my gun was destroyed as evidence. Not to mention stripped of my CHL and I have to wait 5years to reapply!!!

So, like some have said, displaying a gun won't necessarily get you out of a situation. If you have to think about drawing, then you probably shouldn't. It should be a reaction instead. I hope this has opened your eyes a bit. Don't expect LEOs to take your side and think they will trust you because you have a carry licence.

Sorry to hear the news, but thanks for the "story".

[Noquarter]

Originally Posted by rthorne57

Sorry to bring up an older thread, but I would like to share a personal experience with you all just to give you an idea of what is possible. I'll try to make it short..

I'm driving to work on a Monday morning, carrying a Glock 19 on my hip as usual.
It was a nice cool day with light traffic so I had the windows down while cruising when a driver and male occupant of a Dodge truck pull of next to me. I'll spare the details, but he had some bad road rage for some unknown reason. I'm a few blocks from work as we come to a red light and there's not a car in sight. In my head I thought, "If this a-hole is going to do anything, this is where it's going to happen." As we come to a stop, I'm watching him out of the corner of my eye, trying not to make eye contact. I see the driver door swing open, and I immediately unholstered my gun straight up (like a low ready but high on my chest), keeping my finger indexed and muzzle pointed down. As soon as the driver's foot hit the ground and he looked in my window, he froze. He slowly crawled back in his truck and proceeded to make a right turn. I turned left to go to work and I thought it was all over.

15min later my decision to draw would come back to bite me in the ass, BIG TIME. Two rookie county constables came in the office after they ID'd my vehicle outside and immediately had me put my hands on the desk AT GUN POINT while his partner disarmed me and put me in cuffs. I found out that the two occupants of the truck reported to the police that I was pointing the gun at them and turned the story around saying I was the one with road rage, cussing at yelling at them and that "they were in fear for their lives". I made the mistake of trying to talk with the police thinking they would see the truth and maybe give me a slap on the wrist, but I could see they already made up their minds and were treating me like a damn criminal and threatening me with all kinds of shit. The two males came to my work and ID'd me as the driver and I was placed under arrest. The arresting charge was Aggrevated Assault with a Deadly Weapon!!! which is a class 2 Felony. That sounds lovely, doesn't it?? I spent 2 days in jail, and got out on $30,000 bond. In court, I was able to get the charge reduced to a misdemeanor Deadly Conduct. Geez, that sounds a lot better! I might have been able to get the hole charge dropped but it was 2 words against mine and I got royally screwed. And the charge came with a bonus too - 2 years probation, seeing a probation officer every month, 80 community service, and my gun was destroyed as evidence. Not to mention stripped of my CHL and I have to wait 5years to reapply!!!

So, like some have said, displaying a gun won't necessarily get you out of a situation. If you have to think about drawing, then you probably shouldn't. It should be a reaction instead. I hope this has opened your eyes a bit. Don't expect LEOs to take your side and think they will trust you because you have a carry licence.

I've been a police officer for a rather large PD for the last 15 years. I've heard my fair share of stories, and quite frankly, yours stinks. You said you'd spare us the details, unfortunately, the devil IS in the details.

1. Road rage for some "unknown" reason? Right..
2. No other motor vehicles around you? So you weren't pinned in with no avenue to escape? So you were forced to draw your firearm in order to save your life? Save your life from one (1) person approaching you? Was the other guy armed too?
3. 15 minutes later the police arrive at your work? Well sir, guilty people rarely call the police to report a crime against them. I'm not saying it's never happened. Hell, I've had to go speak with junkies reporting another junkie ripped them off. But seriously, is a guilty person willing to perform a showup, or testify in a court of law? Hardly. Given a lighter sentence? Happens all the time. Plea to a lesser charge; saves the courts time and money.

I'd say the "rooks" showed the right amount of caution. After all, you did show a propensity for drawing your firearm over nothing. This makes you unstable and dangerous in my book.

If there's more to the story, you should have put it in. As for now, it doesn't pass the taste test.

[The Reaper]

Have to agree.

Lots of missing details in that story, from what caused the road rage to how the cops tracked you to your office in only 15 minutes.

I could kill 20 people from my front porch and leave 20 more as witnesses with cell phones and it would still take them 15 minutes to find me sitting there.

A tag number will only lead them to your home, normally, and most home addresses do not lead to the resident's employment address.

You must have a very distinctive car for them to be able to spot it and track you down.

Most state CCW laws require explaining during the initial training the rules about brandishing a firearm.

You are in a car, why sit there and wait for the situation to develop?

I would agree that when there are three versions of a story, the two closest ones tend to be the most credible.

TR

[Paslode]

Originally Posted by rthorne57

as we come to a red light and there's not a car in sight.

1. If there were no other cars in sight, it would appear there no other vehicles to prevent you from leaving the scene.

Why didn't you drive off?

2. Did you have the opportunity to report the incident to the authorities during or after incident?




Similar story,

Prior to the ready access to cell phones Pipe fitter Bill was driving home early one morning on lonely and narrow Barry Road in Clay County, MO. A truck full of White Boys repeatedly tried to run him off the road while Pipe Fitter Bill tried to evade them. Finally Pipe fitter Bill pulled out his 44 Mag, held it out the window and fired. He put all the occupants in the hospital. Bill immediately turned himself into the authorities, spent several hours in jail, all serious charges against him were dismissed. I believe the only fine he received was for not having the revolver registered.

The injured White Boys were all charged with a crime.

[Lanyard]

1. Road rage for some "unknown" reason? Right.. Happened to me this summer.
2. No other motor vehicles around you? So you weren't pinned in with no avenue to escape? So you were forced to draw your firearm in order to save your life? Save your life from one (1) person approaching you? Was the other guy armed too? In a Texas truck I think you should assume this, in a west Texas truck it's a guarantee. If you think trouble is coming I think it's better to choose the ground.
3. 15 minutes later the police arrive at your work? Well sir, guilty people rarely call the police to report a crime against them. Most crimes are not reported. Unless I need the report for insurance or there is blood somewhere, it is a waste of my time. Why call the police if nothing happened? Why lead a potential threat to your work? Maybe you aren't sure everything you did was legal. Why start the paperwork and in some jurisdictions the locals are less than helpful . Gary Fadden. I'm not saying it's never happened. Hell, I've had to go speak with junkies reporting another junkie ripped them off. But seriously, is a guilty person willing to perform a showup, or testify in a court of law? Hardly. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Would you risk a FELONY conviction on "hardly"? If you are convicted of a felony how easy is a civil case to follow? There could be a very profitable reason to show up and lie. Given a lighter sentence? Happens all the time. Plea to a lesser charge; saves the courts time and money.

This entire situation happened to a off duty cop friend in the early 80's. One exception being that his sidearm never left the holster. But he had his hand on his gun and was looking the jerk right in the eyes.

[Noquarter]

Originally Posted by Lanyard

Happened to me this summer.
2. In a Texas truck I think you should assume this, in a west Texas truck it's a guarantee. If you think trouble is coming I think it's better to choose the ground.
3. Most crimes are not reported. Unless I need the report for insurance or there is blood somewhere, it is a waste of my time. Why call the police if nothing happened? Why lead a potential threat to your work? Maybe you aren't sure everything you did was legal. Why start the paperwork and in some jurisdictions the locals are less than helpful . Gary Fadden. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Would you risk a FELONY conviction on "hardly"? If you are convicted of a felony how easy is a civil case to follow? There could be a very profitable reason to show up and lie.

This entire situation happened to a off duty cop friend in the early 80's. One exception being that his sidearm never left the holster. But he had his hand on his gun and was looking the jerk right in the eyes.

1. I have to reiterate my earlier statement. Road rage does not happen for no reason. You did something, whether perceived or real, known or unknown, to piss someone off.
2. Fair enough, like I said the devil's in the details. Put it in. Much like the ADA's say to us: if it's not in your report, it didn't happen.
3. Maybe I didn't articulate myself correctly. I was refering to the good ole boys in the truck as the "guilty" party. If they were guilty, or wrong (for initiating this incident), why would they immediatley report it to law enforcement? If they were wrong, why would they go to the OP's workplace and positively ID him as the assailant? If they were wrong, why would they agree to press charges and testify, under oath, in a court of law? You say there's a "profitable" reason. Sorry, I just don't see there being any. None if it makes sense. People aren't that complicated my friend. People are, in general, very simplistic. If something doesn't make sense, someone's full of shit.

That right there, is a big exception.

I'm not calling rthorne57 an outright liar. But what he wrote, without more, doesn't make sense.

[Paslode]

Originally Posted by Noquarter

1. I have to reiterate my earlier statement. Road rage does not happen for no reason. You did something, whether perceived or real, known or unknown, to piss someone off.

Of the 4 occasions I recall having been involved in a road rage incident......I was in 3 of those incidents an active participant i.e. antagonist In all 4 incidents I had the opportunity to make a the choice to continue the stupidity or to neutralize the situation by slowing down, taking an exit, pulling over and/or driving away.

And the many times I have witnessed road rage....all have had two active participants.

It would be my opinion that in many instances as soon as one party leaves their vehicle to confront the other party, the party remaining in the vehicle immediately has control of the situation.....you can drive away, or run the person over.

If by chance the person leaves their vehicle brandishing a weapon, then you might have reasonable cause for the use of deadly force.

[Sten]

So to wrap up the lesson on road rage, if you have the ability to drive off, do so.

Call 911 if you can not drive off. Report everything you know up to that point to the 911 operator.

Pull only if you see the other dude has a deadly weapon (getting out of the car is a foregone conclusion)?