decision making process of when to draw

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by booker

For those of you living in the Commonwealth of Virginia the law is clear, you must meet the following five criteria in order to be within the law:

"THE COURT INSTRUCTS THE JURY THAT if the evidence showed the defendant was to some degree at fault in provoking or bringing on the difficulty, and if you further find that when attacked:
1. He retreated as far as he safely could under the circumstances;
2. In a good faith attempt to abandon the fight;
3. Made known his desire for peace by word or act;
4. He reasonably feared, under the circumstances as they appeared to him, that he was in danger of bodily harm; and
5. He used no more force that was reasonably necessary to protect himself from the threatened harm, then you shall find the defendant not guilty. "

The defense of property isn't as well thought out as Mississippi's:

"DEFENSE OF PROPERTY

A person has NO RIGHT TO USE DEADLY FORCE solely to defend his personal property. This applies where you are only defending your property and NOT defending yourself or your family. (example, you CANNOT shoot someone in the back while they are running across your yard away from you with your TV) A person has NO RIGHT TO THREATEN THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE solely to defend his property. (This is a recent change in Virginia law). (Example, it is a crime to brandish a firearm to run someone off who is breaking into your unoccupied car in a parking lot [but, how many people do you think will go to the magistrate to swear out the following warrant: “look, I was trying to break into this dude’s car when he ran up and scared me by pointing a gun at me and telling me he was going to shoot me.”]) A person has NO RIGHT TO USE OR THREATEN THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE solely to run off a mere trespasser on their open land (beyond the curtilage surrounding the home). The policy behind these laws on defending property and land holds that human life is far more important than your TV or your car or the grass that gets trampled. But remember that most home burglary situations involve defending not only your property but yourself, your spouse, and your children who are in the home. Also, there is case law in Virginia for the "castle doctrine." This doctrine holds that one may use deadly force to defend his home to keep aggressors out of the home. "

LOLOLOL, what a joke, five things before you can use deadly force.....

Amazing, actually not amazing at all....sad or disgusting is a better word.

It will get to a point when (unless there are children involved) I would walk on by thinking to myself, "Ain't my fight" and continue on. You folks in these left-wing socialist states are on your own as far as I'm concerned.

Team Sergeant

[The Reaper]

I agree.

There are enough legal qualifiers there to make it read like it came from Mass.

If someone is closing on you with a knife from inside 21 feet, I defy the average citizen to review his rules, draw, and engage before the attacker is in close personal contact and inflicting injuries.

TR

[alelks]

Situation definitely dictates.

I can say from experience (thank God only once). I had to draw on my own property. Fortunately the individual (after my 3rd verbal warning and after me drawing down on him) decided that he did not want to loose his life that night. One more step forward and he would have died.

Long story short, just because you draw doesn't mean you have to shoot. Guy was severely beating this girl in the middle of the street in front of my house (I live in the country). I walked out with my gun to side yelling at him as I approached the street. After my 3rd yell he finally heard me in his rage. He stepped onto my property. I raised the weapon (pistol) told him in a commanding voice "You don't want to think about it". He kept coming. I threw a round in the chamber (warning #2) and said one more time "I said you don't want to think about it". He kept coming and I drew down on him in a solid Weaver stance and yelled "One more step and you die where the (blank) you fall (3rd warning). The wife meanwhile was yelling on the front porch "Son, don't step forward, he WILL shoot you" at the top of her lungs. Well he knew right then that I meant business and backed off. He was still in a rage but he knew that in one more step he would no longer be of this world.

Thank God I didn't have to shoot but this is a prime example that just because you have to draw doesn't mean you have to shoot. Come to find out he had just gotten out of prison for shooting into a house and paralyzing a young woman. He spend 2 years in prison for his crime. I went down the next day and file a report as he was in violation of his parole (he was out after dark). Not sure what happened to him after that.

AL

[stanley_white]

Allow me to paraphrase / butcher one of my favorite Kelly McCann quotes when he discusses his research into gunfights during the wild west days "The fastest draw is no draw. If these guys thought they were going to be in a fight when they left the bar they had their gun in their hand before they walked outside."

[Kyobanim]

This works for me . . .

Pan Am/Delta pilot involved in shooting.

Plantation, FL -- Last week police were called to investigate an attempted armed Robbery:

The 71-year-old retired Marine who opened fire on two robbers at a Plantation, FL, Subway shop late Wednesday, killing one and critically wounding the other, is described as John Lovell, a former helicopter pilot for two presidents. He doesn't drink, he doesn't smoke, and he works out everyday. Mr. Lovell was a man of action Wednesday night.

According to Plantation police, two masked gunmen came into the Subway at 1949 N. Pine Rd. Just after 11 p.m. There was a lone diner, Mr. Lovell, who was finishing his meal.. After robbing the cashier, the two men attempted to shove Mr. Lovell into a bathroom and rob him as well.

They got his money, but then Mr. Lovell pulled his handgun and opened fired. He shot one of the thieves in the head and chest and the other in the head.

When police arrived, they found one of the men in the shop, K-9 Units found the other in the bushes of a nearby business.. They also found cash strewn around the front of the sandwich shop according to
Detective Robert Rettig of the Plantation Police Department.

Both men were taken to the Broward General Medical Center , where one, Donicio Arrindell, 22, of North Lauderdale died. The other, 21-year-old Frederick Gadson of Fort Lauderdale is in critical but stable condition.

A longtime friend of Lovell was not surprised to hear what happened. The friend said, ''He'd give you the shirt off his back, but he'd be mad as hell if someone tried to take the shirt off your back.''

Mr. Lovell was a pilot in the Marine Corps, flying former Presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson. He later worked as a pilot for Pan Am and Delta.

He is not expected to be charged authorities said. ''He was in fear for his life,'' Detective Rettig said, "These criminals ought to realize that most men in their 70's have military backgrounds and aren't
intimidated by idiots."

Something tells me this old Marine wasn't in fear for his life, even though his life was definitely at risk. The only thing he could be charged with is participating in an unfair fight. One 71 year young Marine against two punks. Two head shots and one center body mass shot - Outstanding shooting! That'll teach them not to get between a Marine and his meal.

Don't you just love a story with a happy ending?

Florida law allows eligible citizens to carry a concealed weapon. Every state should.

[Sten]

Originally Posted by Kyobanim

This works for me . . .

Pan Am/Delta pilot involved in shooting.


Don't you just love a story with a happy ending?

Florida law allows eligible citizens to carry a concealed weapon. Every state should.

So I should carry around a 71 year old Marine?

[Richard]

I had a situation similar to alelks' on a Sunday morning about eight years ago with a shouting/shoving fight between a young man and the college-aged daughter of the neighbor who lives across the street from me. I knew my neighbors were gone for the weekend and, when I saw what was going on, I walked outside to the sidewalk in front of my house carrying the baseball bat I keep next to my front door and talking with the police on one of the mobile house phones. He started cussing at me and making threats when I matter-of-factly told him I was talking to the police, and he came into the street. I told him - as I continued talking to the police - that if he came onto my property I would have to assume he wanted to harm me and I would have to defend myself. My wife and teenaged sons were in the entryway watching and keeping my 12 gauge out of sight but ready - I had told them not to come outside. The girl's boyfriend never did come onto my property - just paced around in the street, making threats and cussing at me - he was still out there carrying on when the police showed up and hauled him away. My neighbor gave me a nice bottle of wine for helping his daughter, and I never saw or heard from the guy again.

Threats come in all shapes and sizes and at any time - and drawing a weapon is not always called for - SA and preparedness to act are the keys.

Richard's $.02

[alelks]

Originally Posted by Richard

I had a situation similar to alelks' on a Sunday morning about eight years ago with a shouting/shoving fight between a young man and the college-aged daughter of the neighbor who lives across the street from me. I knew my neighbors were gone for the weekend and, when I saw what was going on, I walked outside to the sidewalk in front of my house carrying the baseball bat I keep next to my front door and talking with the police on one of mobile house phones. He started cussing at me and making threats when I matter-of-factly told him I was talking to the police, and he came into the street. I told him - as I continued talking to the police - that if he came onto my property I would have to assume he wanted to harm me and I would have to defend myself. My wife and teenaged sons were in the entryway watching and keeping my 12 gauge out of sight but ready - I had told them not to come outside. The girl's boyfriend never did come onto my property - just paced around in the street, making threats and cussing at me - he was still out there carrying on when the police showed up and hauled him away. My neighbor gave me a nice bottle of wine for helping his daughter, and I never saw or heard from the guy again.

Threats come in all shapes and sizes and at any time - and drawing a weapon is not always called for - SA and preparedness to act are the keys.

Richard's $.02

My next door neighbor actually told my daughter "He shouldn't have gotten involved". Of course I bet they would think twice about that comment if it had been their 15 year old grand daughter who lives 3 doors down the street getting the crap beat out of her.

That's the problem with people these days they just watch stuff like this happen and say "It's not my problem". That's one of the reasons people get away with the things they do because they know no one wants to get involved.

I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Especially if it means preventing grave injury or the death of another person.

AL

[Richard]

Originally Posted by alelks

I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Especially if it means preventing grave injury or the death of another person.

Once a sheepdog...

Richard's $.02

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by stanley_white

Allow me to paraphrase / butcher one of my favorite Kelly McCann quotes when he discusses his research into gunfights during the wild west days "The fastest draw is no draw. If these guys thought they were going to be in a fight when they left the bar they had their gun in their hand before they walked outside."

That may work for a wild west coyboy but has no basis in todays LEO society where a fast draw might actually save your life.

LEO's cannot simply draw their weapon when approaching a vehicle, at night, with blacked out windows, or a closed door of a house where some 23 year old punk, loser lives with his "mom" and is waiting in ambush behind that closed door with an AK-47.

Situational Awareness is a wonderful thing if you possess it, but you can have all the SA in the world and it ain't worth a hill of beans when some lawyer writes the "Rules of Engagement" for your police department.

Team Sergeant

consider also, well in advance your next move, and I don't mean the next 5 seconds, but rather....

"I'm leaving the house, before I step outside, I look around, I consider what I'm carrying in my hands. Am I prepared for a sudden alert or shock of an intruder rushing to my door? Can I see blind spots before I unlock my car, or am I chatting with a friend on the cell phone, etc?".

"When leaving the store, do I remember where I parked? Are my hands free or am I pushing a shopping cart? When I arrive home, did someone follow me into the garage and will they attack after the garage door is down?".

This very thing happened to my neighbor 6 months ago. The only thing different was, she called her husband from her phone 5 blocks away, and he met her in the garage as she pulled up. Her call was to ask him if he could help unload the car, it seems she went to Costco and had alot of produce. By chance the husband was there and prevented an attack.

There was no fight, only a startled intruder who ran off, the husband clearly ID him to an LEO - he was picked up within 30 minutes, sitting in a neigborhood Pub. He was questioned regarding another incident and ID'd relating to another case, a rape case.

Now "they" have an SOP, call before arriving, keep informed of whereabouts. Use shopping carts whenever possible, keeping gun hand free, etc.

[Bordercop]

Having been in law enforcement for over 30 years and faced with this situation a time or two, I'd like to add to the thread. When faced with a deadly force situation, you should use deadly force as a last resort and after all other options have been either tried or at the very least weighed based on the totality of the circumstances. LEO's get Monday morning quaterbacked every time they use deadly force and we're held to the standard of was the response to the threat reasonable and would another LEO faced with similar circumstances have reacted in a similar fashion.

Two very important things to keep in your head when faced with questioning regarding the action you take are these...1) Were you in fear for your life or grievous bodily harm or did you fear that another innocent person was in danger of losing their life or in danger of suffering grievous bodily harm and 2) Did the person who threatened you possess the Means, Opportunity, and Intent to inflict harm upon you or an innocent third party who you intended to defend.

For example, a subject who has a gun and is running away from your residence possesses the means to do you bodily harm, but their intent is to flee from you. This would be considered a don't shoot situation in almost every jurisdiction I can think of.

If this same person, rather than fleeing charged at you with a gun or other weapon in their hand and you reasonably feared death then you could and should utilize whatever force is necessary to stop the threat. If your only option is deadly force, you had better be ready, willing and able to explain your actions.

Remember, when you practice shooting you practice shooting center mass and you don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop the threat. Nobody expects you to "wing" the bad guy like in the TV westerns. Aim center mass and don't stop shooting until the threat is longer a threat.

If you aren't ready to articulate why you used deadly force and cannot face the second guessing that's bound to happen, then you should remain a sheep and not get involved.

Perge Sed Caute

[dr. mabuse]

FWIW...

You don't want to get hurt, yet you don't get to select the Grand Jury nor the trial jury.

In Texas at least, understand when and why you are shooting before you carry, plus a healthy dose of SA goes a long way. YMMV.

Hard to condense it, yet here is an overview.

When you can shoot:

1. Reasonable belief
2. Imminent threat
3. Deadly force

Why you are shooting:

1. Murder
2. Robbery
3. Agg. Robbery
4. Sexual Assault
5. Agg. Sexual Assault
6. Agg. Kidnapping

(To prevent imminent commission of above 6 crimes against you or someone else)

Historically, the above has shown to serve people very well on the street and in court.

[Sten]

Thank you for all the great advise!

[strike-hold]

Originally Posted by alelks

That's the problem with people these days they just watch stuff like this happen and say "It's not my problem". That's one of the reasons people get away with the things they do because they know no one wants to get involved.

To be fair though, a lot of the reason why people don't want to get involved is:
a. becuase they don't know what to do or how to do it
b. they don't know, and therefore fear, the legal ramifications of stepping in
c. or they know/believe that they'll get dragged through the ringer by the lawyers if they do step in

To paraphrase Sun Tzu; Know Yourself, Know the Threat, and Know the Law.

The bottom line is, its harder to be a good, law-abiding citizen contributing to society than it is to be a scumbag sponging off of society. But then it probably always has been. That's the price of civilisation - the price of freedom is constant vigilance.

That's my two cents worth anyways.