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Old 10-16-2005, 17:28   #1
NousDefionsDoc
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The Open Source War

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/15/opinion/15robb.html

I would be interested in hearing opinions on this...
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Old 10-16-2005, 17:54   #2
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Insurgency

As with all things Crap in = Crap out.

The concept would be hard to implement because "What is truth?"

As his little rant about the insurgency shows, he uses numbers to say we should have killed or jailed all the "insurgents" in Iraq by now based on our own estimation of the number of "insurgents" in Iraq at the start. The only problem with that line of thought is that a heap of those "insurgents" are "terrorists" coming in all the time from other countries.

A data in, truth out concept will only be as good as the people and their own opinions who manage the system.

Just my opinion of course.
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Old 10-16-2005, 19:07   #3
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So, you disagree?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

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Old 10-17-2005, 07:03   #4
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I agree with the author's assertion that what we need is a strategy "...similar to the strategy used to halt the insurgencies in El Salvador in the 1980's and Colombia in the 1990's. In those cases, these militias used local knowledge, unconstrained tactics and high levels of motivation to defeat insurgents..."

A Middle-Eastern version of "Los PEPES"...

Terrorists don't follow a rule book. We do, and the bad guys have read it. Our hands are tied, and they know it. We need to motivate a force of locals that have a stake in this game, and encourage them to covertly adopt the same tactics as the terrorists. Kill every fund-raiser, hate-preaching cleric, banker, friend, relative, business partner, and everyone associated with the terrorists. Shoot them, blow their houses up, booby-trap their cars....whatever it takes, then leave a sign around their necks describing who they are and what they did. Terrorize the terrorists. It's something they'll understand.
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Old 10-17-2005, 10:00   #5
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Veloci,

As an American, I am vehemently against the tactics you are talking about.

I think they reek of fundamentalism and bloodlust. Targeting friends, relatives, etc. where does it end? How many people will you kill? Where do you draw the line between who gets killed at that point? Are not individuals responsible for their own actions?

If someone buys a rifle from a gun store, then goes and shoots up a office building is it the state's right to then go in, kill the man, his family, his friends, the gun shop owner, all the employees of the shop and all of their families? Or worse facilitate vigilante's to go and act on the state's agenda?

Are we trying to bring these people technocracy or are we bringing them more of the same with a different flag?

Brutality didn't work for the Russians in Afghanistan or Chechnya, it didn't work for the British in South Africa or the French in Algiers. I personally don't want the United States to be backing people who commit such activities, if for no other reason than it opens the doors for aspiring future Sadam Husseins to act on the behalf of the US and build more emnity against our country.

"Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein."

* Translation: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

* Source: Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, Aphorism 146

This being said, I think the US needs to work with locals to develop a sustainable infrastructure where dissident voices can have representation and not feel that the only way to express themselves is through violence.

I am not naieve. After elections and I do not think that all violence will suddenly cease. It is a long process of education, economic development, and stripping all religious/cults figures out of the government process.

j
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Old 10-17-2005, 11:21   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VelociMorte
I agree with the author's assertion that what we need is a strategy "...similar to the strategy used to halt the insurgencies in El Salvador in the 1980's and Colombia in the 1990's. In those cases, these militias used local knowledge, unconstrained tactics and high levels of motivation to defeat insurgents..."

A Middle-Eastern version of "Los PEPES"...

Terrorists don't follow a rule book. We do, and the bad guys have read it. Our hands are tied, and they know it. We need to motivate a force of locals that have a stake in this game, and encourage them to covertly adopt the same tactics as the terrorists. Kill every fund-raiser, hate-preaching cleric, banker, friend, relative, business partner, and everyone associated with the terrorists. Shoot them, blow their houses up, booby-trap their cars....whatever it takes, then leave a sign around their necks describing who they are and what they did. Terrorize the terrorists. It's something they'll understand.
The Israeli's tried this with limited success and found themselves to be just as hated as the Palestinian bombers doing the same deed. Only difference is that the retaliations were carried out by Isreali fundementalists.

What stability has this brought to Colombia and El Salvador? If anything it let those without power feel less and less in control of their country, and those in power hungry for more. Those in power could strong-arm politicians and get their way through corruption.

Case in point, Pablo Escobar was elected (as a substitute) to Colombia's congress. He portrayed himself as a modern day Robin Hood. We all know how he really was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva05
Veloci,

As an American, I am vehemently against the tactics you are talking about.

I think they reek of fundamentalism and bloodlust. Targeting friends, relatives, etc. where does it end? How many people will you kill? Where do you draw the line between who gets killed at that point? Are not individuals responsible for their own actions?

If someone buys a rifle from a gun store, then goes and shoots up a office building is it the state's right to then go in, kill the man, his family, his friends, the gun shop owner, all the employees of the shop and all of their families? Or worse facilitate vigilante's to go and act on the state's agenda?

Are we trying to bring these people technocracy or are we bringing them more of the same with a different flag?

Brutality didn't work for the Russians in Afghanistan or Chechnya, it didn't work for the British in South Africa or the French in Algiers. I personally don't want the United States to be backing people who commit such activities, if for no other reason than it opens the doors for aspiring future Sadam Husseins to act on the behalf of the US and build more emnity against our country.

"Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein."

* Translation: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

* Source: Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, Aphorism 146

This being said, I think the US needs to work with locals to develop a sustainable infrastructure where dissident voices can have representation and not feel that the only way to express themselves is through violence.

I am not naieve. After elections and I do not think that all violence will suddenly cease. It is a long process of education, economic development, and stripping all religious/cults figures out of the government process.

j
Well said, I do agree that more severe measures need to take place to ensure safety but outright slaughtering associates will get you nowhere fast. You'll only force those out that you intended to help because you're killing a fellow countryman, religiously same person, or any combo of things beyond your imagination. People inherently will associate themselves with others for comfort. This is done on all levels, financial standing, religion, looks, beliefs, etc.....
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Old 10-17-2005, 11:38   #7
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Eva, Muslim fundamentalist terrorists follow no rules but their own. Their rules are as follows: "Kill anyone and everyone who does not agree with us, or anyone who gets in our way, by any means possible." In other words, they abide by no law, convention, or rule but their own. Our rules, our laws, our compassion, pity, sympathy, charity, ...all are seen as weakness, and are used against us. For example, we don't normally shoot at ambulances, and everyone knows this. It's in our "rule book". The bad guys read that book. They know that they can drive around in an ambulance, set up I.E.D.s, mortar the "good guys", shoot civilians, and create general hate and discontent with impunity, because to shoot at an ambulance is against everything we stand for. On the other hand, it's a "soft target" for the terrorist, so they don't have an issue with shooting at one, especially if it's full of helpless, wounded soldiers.
Here's another example for you: We, the "good guys", don't shoot at religious sites like mosques. Guess what? The bad guys know this, so they set up arms caches and staging areas in mosques. We have to wait until someone gets killed before we can return fire at a mosque.

We are fighting against an enemy that sees no wrong in blowing up a street-full of children to get at us. We are fighting an enemy that has no problem with kidnapping and beheading, rape, murder, mass execution, or torture. They will never stop, as long as they exist. One way or another, we have to see that they become extinct. We have to convince these terrorists and anyone who supports them that "terrorism" is an extremely hazardous undertaking with little chance of success, that brings with it a high probability of death, suffering, and the destruction of all they hold dear.
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Old 10-17-2005, 13:20   #8
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Veloci

I do not deny that the insurgency the US faces in Iraq or Afghanistan today is innocent of any of the things you mention. But I don't see how targeting the families, friends and relatives of possible enemy soldiers/insurgents/terrorists makes things any better.

Why would any army on earth be stupid enough to attempt to face the US in a conventional war?! I do not admire actions taken by insurgents but I understand them. They are doing what works. What has been proven to work by Chechnyan rebels. Occupy non-combatant locations, attack conventional forces, when the conventional troops knock out the whole building to get the 4-5 men inside, it turns the locals against the conventional soldiers and makes great anti-US propaganda. It gives fuel to people who would say, "US occupation for oil, look how much they care about these people...they just kill them!"

I also think there is far more to fundamentalist terrorism than "kill everyone who is not with us". They are smarter than that. I'm not sure how much faith to place in the analysis written in the book "Imperial Hubris" but I felt his analysis of how fundamentalist cells gain power seemed logical and well defined.

I believe that when the chips are down is when you truly get to know who people are. Principles only mean something if you stick to them in the worst of times, otherwise it's just a bumper sticker.

I don't believe it is possible to kill an idea. I cannot think of a single episode in the 20th century or even the 19th where a religion/race has been successfully exterminated because if I understand you, that is what you are advocating. Extermination. Making those who are against us and anyone who knows or is related to them extinct.

My support of the US led war in Iraq had little to do with WMDs or possible terrorist connections. It had mostly to do with getting rid of an especially brutal and psychotic man who we(the people of the United States) had propped up and supported when it suited the US interests to fight another nation the US needed to punish(Iran). Who had since instituted ethnic cleansing without challenge using chemical weapons. Whose people we abandoned after the first gulf war when we told them to rise up against his army. Whose bodies we are still finding in mass graves around the country.

j
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Old 10-17-2005, 15:22   #9
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Los PEPES was not a strategy, it was an accident.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

Still want to quit?
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Old 10-18-2005, 05:55   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VelociMorte
unconstrained tactics and high levels of motivation to defeat insurgents..."
^^^Sometimes the only thing people understand is the "big stick." History has clearly shown the "big stick" to be most effective...
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Old 10-18-2005, 06:33   #11
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Eva, I am NOT advocating that the United States Military adopt the same tactics as the insurgents. I AM advocating that we give the Iraqi people the tools (ie. training, weapons, and Intel) to rid themselves of the undesirables. I'm certain that enough people have lost their wives, husbands, sons, and daughters to random terrorist attacks on the civilian population to fuel a very angry force of vigilanties. I am NOT advocating the "extermination" of anyone based on race or religion. I AM advocating the extermination of terrorists and everyone associated with them. Remove the support base and organization, and all you have left is a bunch of unorganized, angry individuals trying to make bombs out of matchsticks.

"Principles only mean something if you stick to them in the worst of times, otherwise it's just a bumper sticker. "

The enemy will exploit your "principles" just as I stated in the previous examples. Rather than having to shoot into crowds or at ambulances to take out an immediate threat, it simply makes more sense, and is more "principled" to take out the threat before it is able to exploit your principles. What is more principled; blowing up a terrorist in his own home where he is encouraged and supported, or waiting until he is out in a crowded market, knee-deep in dead kids, holding the trigger down on his RPK? At that point, I personally would hesitate. Unless I had a really clean shot, I would not shoot back for fear of hitting a civilian, and that principled decision could cost me my life, and it could cost the lives of many civilians. They could carve a statement about principles on my grave marker.


The idiot who straps on a vest-full of explosives, or drives a car-bomb...he's the lowest man on the totem-pole. There's a line of brainwashed religious fanatics waiting to take his place. If you cut off the head, ie. the Financiers, the madrassas with their hate-preaching clerics, the bomb-makers, the supportive village elder, the border-crossing guard who takes bribes to look the other way, the forger....everyone who makes up a terrorist cell or network and everyone who supports them, then the snake will die.
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Old 10-18-2005, 07:45   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VelociMorte
Eva, I am NOT advocating that the United States Military adopt the same tactics as the insurgents. I AM advocating that we give the Iraqi people the tools (ie. training, weapons, and Intel) to rid themselves of the undesirables.
To me, there is very little difference between asking an American soldier or an Allied Iraqi soldier to do this. Certainly the world will judge America by the actions of her allies. The end is still the same. A person trained and equipped by the United States executing our foreign policy through violence. I am not opposed to this concept, but I am opposed to there being no central authority or reponsibility...

Perhaps a version of the US Marshalls that is focused on insurgency? I seem to recall that various PDs had sent reps to Iraq to help train the police force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VelociMorte
I am NOT advocating the "extermination" of anyone based on race or religion. I AM advocating the extermination of terrorists and everyone associated with them. Remove the support base and organization, and all you have left is a bunch of unorganized, angry individuals trying to make bombs out of matchsticks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VelociMorte
If you cut off the head, ie. the Financiers, the madrassas with their hate-preaching clerics, the bomb-makers, the supportive village elder, the border-crossing guard who takes bribes to look the other way, the forger....everyone who makes up a terrorist cell or network and everyone who supports them, then the snake will die.
Is this even possible though?

While I am not an expert at terrorism and how cells are formed/operate, from what I do know, cells are formed from groups with little or no knowledge or connection to each other.

My understanding is that cells are designed to operate with a broad objective but no central command authority. That way if one is rolled up, it does not compromise the other. A network "central authority" does not know the exact numbers and capabilities of its own organization to protect itself, other than in a general manner?

Weapons and bomb making materials are easy enough to procure in almost any country in the world. Knowledge of how to produce weapons must be disseminated, but in a world composed of such broad communication networks we must realize that taking out every training camp in the world, were it even possible, would only be a temporary impediment to the education of individuals in these skills.

The French discovered this the hard way in Algiers. They had elite commandos who managed to crush cell after cell until they completely rolled up the primary group that was instigating the "terrorist attacks". They took out the entire organization. They won. Yet within a few years Algiers was in chaos. An shortly thereafter, a new government in place that was totally hostile to the French.

When we discuss the elimination of terrorists, we must look to successful models where insurgency has been crushed. Can we cite even one? The classical European methods of maintaining empire have found little success in a post 1950 environment. I believe the US had the right idea, with hearts and minds but if we are to help these people build a country where lawlessness is punished, then we must teach them to act as a force governed by laws and not a mob IMHO.

The door for civil war is open in Iraq. Civil wars are always the worst. And something I feel America opened the door for when we had no "Marshall Plan" for the reconstruction of the country after we won the conventional war there. (And if we had a Marshall Plan, it sure as hell didn't seem to get things done very well) When you give people reason to be dissatisfied, it makes them look for alternatives.

In this case, several religious fundamentalists saw an opportunity and siezed it. We cannot kill them all anymore, because it would mean we would have to find them all and that is exactly the kind of thing these small organizations are trained to avoid! Being found.

Give the people of Iraq a reason to believe in their government. Make them want to help us. Protect their neighborhoods, make sure they have running water and power. Make sure their schools have air conditioners. Make sure the people have jobs and a safe way to get to/from them! When insurgents are thought of as criminals in an area, they will get the same treatment as criminals in the USA. If the government and military show they care about the welfare of the people, then the people will have reason to support the government.

Of course, it's easier to make people angry and harnass that. That's what today's insurgent leader is able to take advantage of. They aren't good at rebuilding, at providing infrastructure, they're only good at destroying. You can see this in examples of cell leaders in places like Serbia and Chechnya when the fighting stops. The people love them but they are useless at organization, etc and they fail.

So many people are sheep and they need a leader, be it religion or a political party or whatever. Something that will shepard them to a greater good. If we do not make ourselves the best option, then we will never be able to bring these people peace.

j

Last edited by eva05; 10-18-2005 at 07:48.
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Old 10-18-2005, 09:37   #13
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We (the US Military, the United States) do not need to once again be associated with the "death squads". We fight by a set of rules and are limited to what we can/will do because of these rules.

Intelligent, civilized bipeds have rules they follow where as uncivilized persons have no rules and make them up as they go. They also lack any moral or ethical reasoning and because of this lack of moral character will commit the most abhorrent repugnant crimes against humans possible knowing the western media will publish their transgressions in order to scare many others.

VelociMorte, if we were to employ their tactics we would be no better then the islamic cowards themselves. The tactic we are currently using is to find each coward and bring him to justice or bring justice to him. Limit collateral damage as not to disenfranchise the local populace. I could go on and on but I’m sure you get the point. We are limited because we have a reputation and the moral high-ground, we lose that high-ground and the war on islamic cowards is over.

Have no doubt we are winning this war, as told by their tactics. In the beginning they went toe to toe with the US military, now they use IED's and islamic suicide bombers because they are cowards. Because they are cowards they now turn their bombs on their own people. They are doing this because they now know they cannot intimidate the United States (not while we have a republican sitting in office) or it's people. They are looking for the weakest possible link to frighten. Now it's up to the people of Iraq to stand for what is right, to stand for their own freedom or die on their knees.

IMO this war would be over if we targeted a few deserving nations along with their dictators, syria, jordan, yemen iran and a few others come to mind. History tells us that when we target national level terrorists (heads of state) they will think twice before sponsoring/supporting international terrorists. Such was the case with momar kadafi back in 1986 when the US sent a message via 500 pounders and some with his name on them.

Time will tell if we chose the proper strategy. I believe we did, I believe we are now doing what should have been done during slick willies (klinton’s) tenure, and we are now bestowing dirt naps on deserving individuals. IMO and having served during slick willies term, I believe he was afraid, and not for a nation but like saddam, he was afraid to lose his own life if the United States went toe to toe with the islamic cowerists (bin laden). I always said, before saddam was captured, that he would be taken alive, because it was easy to see in his eyes he was no warrior but a scared little man, I believe slick wille is the same scared little man and my proof is that bin laden was breathing free air during his tenure.

TS
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Old 10-18-2005, 09:54   #14
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Eva, there are a few recent successful examples of where this strategy works: The North Vietnamese and VC, the Khmer Rouge, and Los PEPES in Columbia. I'm sure there are others. No matter how intent we are on winning the "hearts and minds" of the civilian populace by providing them with food, clean water, air conditioning, schools, etc. , it's all for naught if the bad guys come into town, line up the men and shoot them, rape the women, burn the schools, and make the kids watch it all. Believe it or not, there are people in the world who are bad, just for the sake of being bad. No amount of goodness or principles will change them. A bullet in the head will.

Anyone can make a crude bomb out of pipe and any rapidly combustible material. Any twelve year-old could figure it out. It's a little more difficult to make a reliable initiating device in your garage, and the mortality rate is high for the uneducated. It's a totally different ballgame when you get into multi-kilo, command detonated, shaped-charge explosive devices. It takes an engineer, a supplier, and someone willing to transport, plant, and initiate the device. While the former might kill or wound a handful at close range, the latter has the capability to kill hundreds. With the exception of few countries, it's not that easy for a civilian to obtain high-order explosives, initiating devices, and someone willing and able to construct a destructive device. It takes criminal contacts willing to be party to mass murder. Eliminate these people and you make it very difficult for terrorists to blow stuff up. Profit and ideology drive them. A bullet in the head stops them.

Terrorist cells all have certain needs, regardless of their ideology. Foremost among these is funding. Whether funded through criminal acts, or by religious charity....guns, explosives, housing, food, travel, training and education, forged documents...none of these are free. Eliminate the funds and the terrorists are stuck in their Third-World mud huts armed with sticks. Simple concept: Fund terrorists, get a bullet in the head.

Organization: Believe it or not, no matter how charitable, kind, and helpful we are, some people will always hate us. In some countries, a male's entire education consists of memorizing the Koran and why infidels like you and me deserve to die. The really dedicated ones might then progress to a camp where they learn how to kill infidels more effectively. Throughout this "education" there are individuals teaching their own personally perverted version of Islam to impressionable young men with little in life to look forward to thanks to the wonderful education they have received. They've been literally brainwashed into thinking that since this life sucks, they might as well just get it over with, do the will of "Allah" and kill some infidels, and advance to paradise and those 72 willing virgins. To us it sounds crazy, but to a guy who has been raised in the seventh-century, it's a glorious future. The Madrasses are where this starts. Someone funds and organizes these schools. Someone funds and organizes the training camps. Someone takes these fully formed terrorists, gives them a mission, and sends them forth from the nest. A bullet in the head for each of them.

Eva, you cannot reason with someone who finds it acceptable, and even desirable to kill as many innocent people as possible. You cannot reason with someone who finds you a loathsome infidel worthy of nothing but death. As unfortunate as it is, violence is all that some people understand. That is who and what we are dealing with. The majority of the "insurgents" in Iraq and Afghanistan are foreign fighters that have traveled to these countries for the sole purpose of killing American Soldiers and anyone who "collaborates" with them. They are not fighting for their country, their lifes, their loved-ones, their freedom, or any other motivational factor we would consider normal. They fight only to kill. The only way to stop them is to kill them first.
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:35   #15
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TS, don't get me wrong. I'd die before I'd take an innocent life, or advocate the taking of same. I'm not talking "Death Squads" where anything goes; I'm talking more along the lines of "Frontier Justice".

Sometimes treating terrorism as a crime, and terrorists as criminals just doesn't work. Even now, we are fighting people who were arrested, detained, and released for lack of evidence that would stand up in a court of law. We knew they were guilty when we PUC'ed 'em, but couldn't take the case to trial for various reasons. Some JAG dude half a world away decides the case is weak, and the bad guy gets a ticket home. A month later, he's planting I.E.D.s on the road.

If an Afghan father drags the guy who harbored the bad guys who intentionally burned the school down with his daughters in it, out into the street and puts a bullet in his head, I'm all for it.

If the Paki brother puts a bullet into the nutbag cleric who convinced his sibling to strap on a vest and kill a crowd at the bazaar, I'm all for it.

If the entire populace gets together, organizes, roots out the bad guys, and hangs them from lamp posts, I'm all for it.

If the Saudi Banker who routes funds to a hundred hate-preaching Madrassas, turns into a pink cloud after starting his Mercedes Benz, I'm all for it.

If we don't eliminate the root of the problem, next year we'll be in Indonesia, P.I., or one of the other 'Stans. While I agree totally with you in that we should go after Heads of State that support and harbor terrorists, sending a cruise missile or two to do the job is not too dissimilar to sending a robotic death squad with a nice paint job. I'm all for it, but a group of pissed-off locals would be cheaper.
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“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." John Stuart Mill
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