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Old 08-13-2009, 21:41   #16
Ambush Master
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Why not?

Didn't the collective writings of the NT reform the original message of the OT?

And isn't it the collective interpolations in the Haddith and Sunnah which reformed the original message of the Koran through their interpretations of what was written and said?

Why couldn't it happen yet again if it was seen as GOD's {Allah's} will?

Richard's $.02
There's Always the "Example" of the New Testament"!!

The "Old Testament" isn't that far off from the Koran!!!

You need to remember to align your way of thinking with what the "STANDARDS OF THAT TIME WERE"!!!! Hell, they Crucified, Drawed and Quarted, Impaled, Burned at the Stake, etc.!!!!

What Islam has severly failed to do,is to re-align it's Basic Tenets with the current Time/Cultures/Standards of Humanity!!!

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Old 08-13-2009, 21:42   #17
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And no more prophets means no more revelations.
And who says there will be no further prophets? Muhammad was the last to date - but can there be others at some point in the future if it is GOD's {allah's} will?

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Old 08-13-2009, 21:47   #18
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There's Always the "Example" of the New Testament"!!

The "Old Testament isn't that far off from the Koran!!!
Comparing the Koran and the bible is an unfair comparison.

The Koran is on par with the 10 Commandments and Revelations (the direct word of God as relayed to Moses and the Apostle John respectively).

The rest of the Bible is on par with the Hadith (stories recounted by the prophets, apostles, followers, etc)

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Originally Posted by Ambush Master View Post
You need to remember to align your way of thinking with what the "STANDARDS OF THAT TIME WERE"!!!! Hell, they Crucified, Drawed and Quarted, Impaled, Burned at the Stake, etc.!!!!

What Islam has severely failed to do, is to re-align it's Basic Tenets with the current Time/Cultures/Standards of Humanity!!!

It can't. Because the Koran is the word of Allah as relayed through the Arch-Angel Gabriel to the Prophet, it is perfect for all time.

When that's your frame of reference, it creates a new situation...tracking?
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Old 08-13-2009, 22:03   #19
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Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor View Post
Comparing the Koran and the bible is an unfair comparison.

The Koran is on par with the 10 Commandments and Revelations (the direct word of God as relayed to Moses and the Apostle John respectively).

The rest of the Bible is on par with the Hadith (stories recounted by the prophets, apostles, followers, etc)




It can't. Because the Koran is the word of Allah as relayed through the Arch-Angel Gabriel to the Prophet, it is perfect for all time.

When that's your frame of reference, it creates a new situation...tracking?
That is my point!!

There is a need for a Reformation, like what happened with Christianity, to re-align the "Faith" with the "Norms" of the current Time!!!
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Old 08-13-2009, 22:12   #20
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Originally Posted by Ambush Master View Post
That is my point!!

There is a need for a Reformation, like what happened with Christianity, to re-align the "Faith" with the "Norms" of the current Time!!!
There is a need for something that CAN'T HAPPEN. To do so is to renounce islam.
Which is to become an apostate - banished to death and to burn in hell.

Mainstream theologians are taking notice:

In the Muslim understanding, the Qur’an comes directly from God, unmediated.
Muhammad simply wrote down God’s eternal and immutable words as they were dictated to him by the Archangel Gabriel.
It cannot be changed, and to make the Qur’an the subject of critical analysis and reflection is either
to assert human authority over divine revelation (a blasphemy), or question its divine character.

Considered strictly on its own terms, Islam is not a tolerant religion and its capacity for far-reaching renovation is severely limited.


- Cardinal Pell, 2006

Kufr – unbelief

o8.0 Apostasy from Islam (Ridda) – Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst.

o8.1 When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed.
Acts that Entail Leaving Islam (o8.7) are:
(2) To intend to commit unbelief
(3) to speak words that imply unbelief such as “Allah is the third of three,” or “I am Allah,”
(4) to revile Allah or His Messenger
(7) to deny any verse of the Koran or anything which by scholarly consensus belongs to it, or add a verse that does not belong to it


As for Judaism and Christianity:

Previously revealed religions were valid in their own eras, as is attested to by many verses in the Holy Koran, but were abrogated by the universal message of Islam, as is equally attested to by many verses of the Koran.
- Reliance of the Traveller, w4.1(2)


.

Last edited by Warrior-Mentor; 08-13-2009 at 22:21.
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Old 08-13-2009, 23:29   #21
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Need to add:

See Reliance of the Traveller, w4.0 - Finality of islam

w4.1(1) "Muhammed (PBUH) is the last prophet and messenger. Anyone claiming to be a prophet or a messenger of Allah after him or to found a new religion is a fraud, misled and misleading."



See Reliance of the Traveller:
o8.7 - Acts that Entail Leaving islam (READ APOSTACY - Punishable by Death)


o8.7(7) "to deny any verse of the Koran or anything which by scholarly consensus (def b7) belongs to it, or to add a verse that does not belong to it."

o8.7(14) "to deny the obligatory character of something which by the consensus of muslims (ijma', def b7) is part of islam, when it is well know as such..."




THIS IS HUGE! See where this just shut down all the so called "Moderate" Muslims legal authority!

Last edited by Warrior-Mentor; 08-13-2009 at 23:34.
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Old 08-14-2009, 04:52   #22
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Quote:
Considered strictly on its own terms, Islam is not a tolerant religion and its capacity for far-reaching renovation is severely limited.

- Cardinal Pell, 2006
However - when the Cardinal's statement is viewed in the broader context to the arguments being presented:

Quote:
All these factors I have outlined are problems, for non-Muslims certainly, but first and foremost for Muslims themselves. In grappling with these problems we have to resist the temptation to reduce a complex and fluid situation to black and white photos. Much of the future remains radically unknown to us. It is hard work to keep the complexity of a particular phenomenon steadily in view and to refuse to accept easy answers, whether of an optimistic or pessimistic kind. Above all else we have to remember that like Christianity, Islam is a living religion, not just a set of theological or legislative propositions. It animates the lives of an estimated one billion people in very different political, social and cultural settings, in a wide range of devotional styles and doctrinal approaches. Human beings have an invincible genius for variation and innovation.

Considered strictly on its own terms, Islam is not a tolerant religion and its capacity for far-reaching renovation is severely limited. To stop at this proposition, however, is to neglect the way these facts are mitigated or exacerbated by the human factor. History has more than its share of surprises.

Islam and western Democracies
Cardinal George Pell, Archbishop of Sydney
Legatus Summit, 4 Feb 2006

http://www.sydney.catholic.org.au/pe...0627_681.shtml
And like the good Cardinal - I remain vigilant...yet cautiously optimistic.

MOO - but to claim Islam has not been changed over time is to patently ignore the historical record - and to say it will not continue to do so in the future is to advocate an intellectually unsupportable position. I think the greater questions to be considered are not if but how it will change and how might we affect that change.

Richard's $.02
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“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Old 08-14-2009, 09:14   #23
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To prove the point made by Warrior Mentor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor View Post
There is a need for something that CAN'T HAPPEN. To do so is to renounce islam.
Which is to become an apostate - banished to death and to burn in hell.

Mainstream theologians are taking notice:

In the Muslim understanding, the Qur’an comes directly from God, unmediated.
Muhammad simply wrote down God’s eternal and immutable words as they were dictated to him by the Archangel Gabriel.
It cannot be changed, and to make the Qur’an the subject of critical analysis and reflection is either
to assert human authority over divine revelation (a blasphemy), or question its divine character.

Considered strictly on its own terms, Islam is not a tolerant religion and its capacity for far-reaching renovation is severely limited.


- Cardinal Pell, 2006

Kufr – unbelief

o8.0 Apostasy from Islam (Ridda) – Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst.

o8.1 When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed.
Acts that Entail Leaving Islam (o8.7) are:
(2) To intend to commit unbelief
(3) to speak words that imply unbelief such as “Allah is the third of three,” or “I am Allah,”
(4) to revile Allah or His Messenger
(7) to deny any verse of the Koran or anything which by scholarly consensus belongs to it, or add a verse that does not belong to it


As for Judaism and Christianity:

Previously revealed religions were valid in their own eras, as is attested to by many verses in the Holy Koran, but were abrogated by the universal message of Islam, as is equally attested to by many verses of the Koran.
- Reliance of the Traveller, w4.1(2)


.
Here's the link: http://www.newsmax.com/pamela_geller...13/247353.html

Here's the sad truth...



Muslim Girl: Dad Will Kill Me for Converting to Christianity

Thursday, August 13, 2009 10:17 AM

By: Pamela Geller



The good news is that Rifqa Bary is alive. Police had been looking for Rifqa, a teenage girl from central Ohio who vanished three weeks ago. Rifqa, who turned 17 on Monday, converted to Christianity from Islam — bringing upon herself Islam’s death sentence for those who leave Islam.


Why did she flee? In the land of the free, she had to liberate herself.


“I was threatened by my dad,” Rifqa explained. “When my dad found out [about her conversion to Christianity], phone calls from the Muslim community started coming in with e-mails that confronted me. And I had a laptop, and he took that laptop and waved it in the air and he was about to beat me with it, and he said, ‘If you have this Jesus in your heart, you’re dead to me. You’re not my daughter.’ And I refused to speak but he said, ‘I will kill you. Tell me the truth.’ In these words, bad words, cuss words. So I knew that I had to get away.”


Rifqa Bary is alive. She ran to Florida and escaped the fate her father had in mind for her — unlike Amina and Sarah Said, two Muslim teens in Texas who ran away but returned home at the insistence of their mother, Tissie Said, only to be brutally murdered by their father, Yaser Said, on New Year’s Day 2008. Rifqa got away, unlike Aqsa Parvez, a Muslim teen in Canada who stayed with friends only to return home and get murdered by her father for refusing to wear the Islamic headscarf.


But now Rifqa Bary is in court, in a custody battle that could send her to her death. “They want me back home,” she says. “I can’t go back to Ohio, you guys don’t understand. That community, they’re like — I will die within a week. My life is at stake.”


“You guys don’t understand,” Rifqa said. “Islam is very different than you guys think. They have to kill me. My blood is now halal, which means that because I am now a Christian, I’m from a Muslim background, it’s an honor. If they love God more than me, they have to do this. And I’m fighting for my life, you guys don’t understand. You don’t understand.”


Americans don’t understand because the “experts” aren’t telling them. I pray that Rifqa’s defenders bring to the court experts who know about honor killings. Family members who have lost their relatives to honor killings (for less) should be giving testimony. Amina and Sarah Said’s aunt, Gail Gartrell, should speak; Ibn Warraq, Wafa Sultan (who is forced to live in hiding in the United States because of Islamic death threats), and Robert Spencer should speak; Phyllis Chesler and friends of Aqsa Parvez should speak.


This is the front line — right in Florida. While our finest young Americans engage in hard-fought battles on the front lines of the global jihad in Iraq and Afghanistan, and Israel is on the front lines of the global jihad in the Middle East, Muslim women all over the world are on the front lines in the war against Islamic jihad. The battlefield is their homes. They live their lives in abject terror in homemade concentration camps.


The control of women is central to the battle between free men and slaves. The horror of the Islamic subjugation, abuse, and murder of women has made its way to our shores. Our ignorance or worse, silence, is complicity in their deaths. Invariably, the terrible sociological result is a reduction in the status of women in Western society.


Are we in the free world going to stand by silently while Muslims in the West brutalize women and converts from Islam, and treat them as worthless trash? We failed Amina and Sarah Said, Aqsa Parvez, and thousands of other women held captive by the “devout.”


Rifqa Bary knows this: “Amina and Sarah,” she said, “they were forced to go back home. They were killed by their dad! This is not just some threat! This is reality! This is truth! This is reality! How many more cases do you want? There’s case after case. There’s hundreds of them. I am one. I am one of hundreds.”


How many more of these girls will we fail? Rifqa’s testimony is a plea to the free world to stand for its values and its principles. How far we have fallen when a young woman is pleading to be free in the land of the free, home of the brave.


Rifqa Bary’s life hangs in the balance. The West should do everything in its power to save her.


Maybe President Obama will have a chat with "daddy" and make everything better.
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Old 08-14-2009, 10:18   #24
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From the UN Population Fund:

"Honour" Killings

Throughout the world, perhaps as many as 5,000 women and girls a year are murdered by members of their own families, many of them for the "dishonour" of having been raped, often as not by a member of their own extended family.

Many forms of communally sanctioned violence against women, such as "honour" killings, are associated with the community's or the family's demand for sexual chastity and virginity. Perpetrators of such wanton acts often receive light sentences or are excused by the courts entirely because defence of the family's honour is treated as a mitigating circumstance.

"Honour" killings are on the rise worldwide, according to Asma Jahangir, the United Nations special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary and arbitrary executions. Ms. Jahangir is working closely with United Nations special investigators on violence against women and on the independence of judges and lawyers to address the issue.

"The perpetrators of these crimes are mostly male family members of the murdered women, who go unpunished or receive reduced sentences on the justification of having murdered to defend their misconceived notions of 'family honour,'" Jahangir wrote in her 2000 annual report to the Commission on Human Rights.32 Such killings have been reported in Bangladesh, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan, Sweden, Turkey, Uganda and the United Kingdom, according to the report.

On the order of clerics, an 18-year-old woman was flogged to death in Batsail, Bangladesh, for "immoral" behaviour, according to the report. In Egypt, a father paraded his daughter's severed head through the streets shouting, "I avenged my honour."

The report says that "honour" killings tend to be more prevalent in, but are not limited to, countries with a majority Muslim population. It adds, however, that Islamic leaders have condemned the practice and say it has no religious basis.


http://www.unfpa.org/swp/2000/english/ch03.html

Strong emotions, publicly and privately circulated misinformation, misogyny, and consistently faulty reasoning seem to be pervasive in all sides of these complex issues - and so it goes - sadly.

Richard's $.02
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Old 08-14-2009, 12:16   #25
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Dated story/report

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.....Such killings have been reported in Bangladesh, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan, Sweden, Turkey, Uganda and the United Kingdom........
This is a dated story/report.

Since it was published a few more countries need to be added to the list, including Canada and the US
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Old 08-14-2009, 13:40   #26
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The report says that "honour" killings tend to be more prevalent in, but are not limited to, countries with a majority Muslim population. It adds, however, that Islamic leaders have condemned the practice and say it has no religious basis.[/I]

http://www.unfpa.org/swp/2000/english/ch03.html

Strong emotions, publicly and privately circulated misinformation, misogyny, and consistently faulty reasoning seem to be pervasive in all sides of these complex issues - and so it goes - sadly.
Islamic leaders have condemned the practice? Who? and to whom?

If MUSLIMS condemned it in Arabic to MUSLIMS, it might be more convincing.

The reality is, MUSLIMS condemn it to NON-MUSLIMS.

Why?

Because they are REQUIRED TO BY LAW. Lying is REQUIRED BY LAW when defending the faith.

So when they tell a NON-MUSLIM it has no religious basis, it's because they are required to lie to protect the faith.

Is this really that difficult?

The religious basis is ISLAMIC LAW. Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law:

Book O (the book of "justice") Section 8.0 Apostacy from Islam (ridda)

o8.1 Whoever voluntarily leaves islam is killed

o8.4 no indeminty or expiation for killing him
(see how nicely this encourages vigilante justice?)

It's not that complicated. You are allowing yourself to be deceived and in the process you are promulgating their talking points.

Last edited by Warrior-Mentor; 08-14-2009 at 13:43.
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Old 08-14-2009, 13:59   #27
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I have been following this thread with great interest. Thank you Richard for the perpetual "devil's advocate" role as it puts questions in my head that wouldn't otherwise be there, and those questions ensure internal vigilance.
Warrior-Mentor Sir, among One Valley at a Time, the MSM, and your postings, I sincerely believe one is enabled to have a well-informed choice. For that, I thank you.
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Old 08-14-2009, 14:10   #28
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Oh - I see - the blind men and the elephant parable.

Richard's $.02
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“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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Old 08-14-2009, 14:34   #29
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Oh - I see - the blind men and the elephant parable.

Richard's $.02
Richard - Seems you've grabbed onto the tail and won't let go.

But you know what'll happen if you stay there too long?
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Old 08-14-2009, 14:39   #30
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Richard - Seems you've grabbed onto the tail and won't let go.
It's entirely possible - but which part have you taken hold of?

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“Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)… There are just some kind of men who – who’re so busy worrying about the next world they’ve never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results.” - To Kill A Mockingbird (Atticus Finch)

“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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