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Old 02-12-2004, 15:39   #61
Roguish Lawyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned Mao, Marulanda, Begin (Against the Brits), Castro (Che wasn't the leader in Cuba), Bolivar, Marti, Lenin, Khomeini (against the Shah), Collins, etc. Not saying I would pick them, but nobody has mentioned them.
So who would you pick?
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Old 02-12-2004, 15:51   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
So who would you pick?
LOL - NOBODY! despite me messing with DAVE, I don't think you can say one is the best. Each set of circumstances is too different. The ones that are generally very principled and truly talented lose because they have tough adversaries. The ones that win are generally more lucky than good.

I like the way Begin ran his op, minimal civilian casualties, etc. But the Brits were already broke and looking to pull out anyway.

I've said my peace on Mao. Points were made regarding Giap.

Marulanda is losing and hasn't really done much more than sustain, although that is a feat in itself.

Lenin was out of the country when it started and didn't even believe it was happening at first.

Each one has pluses and negatives. Its like asking Who is the greatest General or who is the greatest ball player. LOL.

Good discussion though!

Che is my favorite, but not the best. He's my favorite because he was a true believer and his legacy lives on, despite that he was not good militarily. He was the rock and roll revolutionary! LOL. Good T Shirts too.
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He knows only The Cause.

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Old 02-12-2004, 16:14   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Its like asking Who is the greatest General
Maybe we'll do that one later. Or greatest NCO!
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Old 02-12-2004, 16:16   #64
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I've got my favorite NCO and officer.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

Still want to quit?
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Old 02-12-2004, 16:18   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I've got my favorite NCO and officer.
Well, you're the boss. You want to give it up in a new thread, two new threads or here?
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Old 02-12-2004, 16:21   #66
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Oh ye of short time span! Che's legacy is going on what, 20-30 years?

My boy GW, now he was a true believer and his legacy lives on - going on over two and a quarter centuries now - and he was good militarily. He doesn't have as many t-shirts, but he's got a state, a city or ten, a few universities, a bunch of streets, the dollar bill, the quarter, the side of a mountain, a big Masonic phallic symbol, an Academy Award (no, wait, that was Denzel),...

And two millenia after his death, Judah the Hammer has a couple million kids spinning dreidels and thinking it's fun, while millions of parents light candles and try to explain to them that it's not "Jewish Christmas" and why eight days of crappy presents is better than one day of cool ones (apologies to South Park).
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Old 02-12-2004, 16:22   #67
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I'm not the Boss, LOL. New thread, one for both?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

Still want to quit?
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Old 02-12-2004, 16:23   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I'm not the Boss, LOL. New thread, one for both?
Done. I'm putting them in GD, though.
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Old 02-13-2004, 14:06   #69
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"Who is the best insurgent leader in history?"

First: Benjamin Franklin, US representative in Europe, American Revolution.

Second: Boris Yeltsin, Ex-President, Russian Republic

"Why did you pick who you picked?"

Both individuals met the following criteria:

1. Both individual were originally part of existing establishment, worked both inside (and eventually from outside/fringe) to functionally replace the existing system of governance with a radically different alternative form of governance.

2. Both individuals took extreme risks as part of their efforts on behalf of their respective insurgencies. If Franklin had ever been captured by the British, well, he would have been a dead man and that might well have been the end of the American Revolution.

3. Both were "successful" (on Yeltsin, jury is still out) in their "insurgencies", compared to many of the others mentioned here.

4. Both efforts were primarily "insurgencies", and not primarily "terrorist" in nature, as the goal in both cases was to establish a different type of government structure.

Just my .02
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Old 02-14-2004, 11:53   #70
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Hmmm...

Favorite insurgent leaders...

From my POV, I'd have to select those that had an impact beyond the immediate target audience; but didn't drift too far into terrorism.

Joan of Arc (just so I can say the French did something...)

George Washington (he wasn't the only person involved, but he signed the blame line)

V.I. Lenin

Mao Tse Tung

Ho Chi Minh

Castro

Daniel Ortega

Ghandi

Barzani

IMHO, the only effect Che had on the world scene was T-Shirt sales in the USA.
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Old 02-14-2004, 13:18   #71
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Tracy - Why Ortega? He was a loser of the first water. YOur reasons on impact beyond immidiate area doesn't hold up with him.

good comment on Guevara, by the way.
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Old 02-14-2004, 13:53   #72
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Re: Best Insurgent Leader

Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Who is the best insurgent leader in history? You can list a small group if you can't pick one. Why did you pick who you picked?
Certainly not "the best of all time" but of great note lately is Ahmed Shah Masood of the N.A. in Afghanistan. Organized, trained and fought with a wide swath of ethnic groups first against the Soviets, then the Taliban for over 20 years.

He had the ability, charisma, and leadership to do all this on a shoestring budget and was so effective that A.Q. pulled out all stops in seeking his assaination.
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Old 02-14-2004, 21:00   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by CRad
Tracy - Why Ortega? He was a loser of the first water. YOur reasons on impact beyond immidiate area doesn't hold up with him.

good comment on Guevara, by the way.
Daniel Ortega may be the Forrest Gump of Insurgencies; but he was also the poster child for the "Domino Theory" in Central America.

The Reagan Administration held him and the Sandinistas up as an example of complacency.

Another thing that intrigued/impressed me was the way he faded from view when the Nicaraguans demanded free elections. He could have done worse to the process. For all we know, he's running a PC help desk in San Diego...

Someone mentioned Masood of Afghanistan; which is a very good choice.
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Old 02-21-2005, 19:31   #74
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What do you think? Was George Mason the first insurgent leader in American politics?
Quote:
Colonel Mason, the master of Gunston Hall, stood on the floor of the Federal Convention of 1787 and appealed for a clear stipulation of the rights of the individual citizen as over against his government, and when it was rejected he refused to sign the Constitution of the United States of America and withdrew from the assemblage to lead a strong opposition party against its ratification. This was the first great political contest in the United States, and so strong did the opposition become that the First Congress was forced to carry through amendments of this nature, and these stand today as the first ten amendments to the Constitution. With this in mind, this pilgrimage to old Gunston Hall, the estate of the first insurgent leader in American politics, is especially interesting.
I would nominate Nathanial Bacon.

Last edited by lrd; 02-21-2005 at 19:43.
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Old 02-22-2005, 20:01   #75
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This is a good thread
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

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