SOCOM Marine Corps Element.

[JasonSw2]

I intend this post only as a discussion of the concept that this new group of Marines, operating under the SOCOM flag, if you will, are being organized to perform (according to this story, at least) what has traditionally been a USA Special Forces function (although certainly not your only capability).

As a former Marine, I consider myself very much a guest here in your establishment, and intend no offense in this bringing this subject up.

While I am confident in the qualifications of the selected Marines, many coming from our Force Recon units, I find my curiosity piqued as to why this unit mission was selected, and thought this a good place to look for answers, and enlightenment.

I want to ask "Are you guys so busy that you needed the Marines to help out?" but want to ask it without the negativity that so blunt a question implies.

So,... what do ya think? Is this a good thing, a bad thing? Some welcome inter-Department sharing of methods & ideas? Waste of money?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts,

-JasonSw2


snipped from strategypage.com:

U.S. Marines Surrender to SOCOM
by James Dunnigan
June 24, 2005

The U.S. Marine Corps has agreed to turn over a force of 2,500 specially trained marines to SOCOM (Special Operations Command.) Bowing to pressure from the Department of Defense, and SOCOM, the marines are the last of the services to make such a contribution. Created in 1987, SOCOM gained control over army Special Forces (including Civil Affairs, Psychological Warfare and special helicopter units), navy SEALs and air force commandoes and special aviation units. But the marines said they had nothing to offer.

The marine SOCOM force will consist of 400 marines trained to provide military instruction for foreign armed forces. This has long been a Special Forces chore, and will still be. But the addition of marine training troops will take some of the pressure off Special Forces to provide this service.

The marines will also provide over a thousand marines trained as "special operations-capable." The marines have been training some of their troops to be "special operations-capable" for over a decade. But SOCOM has different standards, and skill requirements. Once the "special operations-capable" marines are turned over to SOCOM control, SOCOM will provide additional training. As part of this deal, the SOCOM marines will be available for Marine Corps operations when SOCOM doesn’t need them. It’s likely that once SOCOM gets control of these marines, they will keep them busy indefinitely.

Finally, the marines will provide some support units. These will include stuff like dog handlers (and dogs trained for military tasks), some logistical units and an Air Naval Gunfire Liaison Company.

SOCOM will also keep control over Special Operations Detachment 1, a force of 86 marines trained as commandoes. SOCOM originally wanted as many as 4,000 marines, and the final deal may result in the marines giving up more than 2,500 troops.

[Bill Harsey]

JasonSw2,
Much of what you reference has already been asked and answered here in other threads. Try "Marine SOCOM" in the search button.

[The Reaper]

I see no problem as long as the force consists of seasoned, mature NCOs and officers who speak the language, have experience in the area, are culturally aware, have mastery of the subjects they plan to teach, plan to live with the soldiers that they are training, and are fully qualified as instructors.

TR

[lksteve]

i am not sure the Marine Corps culture is compatible with the mission...

[QRQ 30]

I agree with T.R. and there is nothing that makes those attributes specific to one Service or another. Taking the "G" from GWOT, there is plenty of room for more units.

[QRQ 30]

Let me expand a little on my previous. Having worked with marines I'm not sure they can have these attributes. Maybe things have changed. We were located in a corner of the Khe Sahn Combat Base in 1968. The Marines would have nothing to do with indigenous personnel. They would not allow our troops (indig) to enter their compound. U.S. personnel had to take the trash to their dump.

A superior attitude won't work in training foreign troops.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I see no problem as long as the force consists of seasoned, mature NCOs and officers who speak the language, have experience in the area, are culturally aware, have mastery of the subjects they plan to teach, plan to live with the soldiers that they are training, and are fully qualified as instructors.

TR

I agree, but this is just a part of FID and while training host nation troops can be done by any force meeting the requisite qualifications mentioned above the force itself is going to fall short dealing with all the other aspects that makes FID work such as intel ops, selected civil-military requirements, and joint/combined ops to name but a few challenges. Where as the marines can bring a lot to the table SF will bring the entire meal and leave a tip.

Jack Moroney-I know many marines and have great respect for them, however you might be able to detach the marine from the Corps you will never separate the Corps from the marine.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by Jack Moroney

... the force itself is going to fall short dealing with all the other aspects that makes FID work such as intel ops, selected civil-military requirements, and joint/combined ops to name but a few challenges. Where as the marines can bring a lot to the table SF will bring the entire meal and leave a tip.

my experience with Uncle Sam's Misguided Children in Somalia left me unimpressed with the Marines as an organization capable of sustaining long-term operations...hell, they don't even have their own medics...how are they going to sustain a force they are training...? they don't have their own engineers...how are they going to construct training facilities...? if it ain't on the boat, where are they going to get stuff from...?
IMNSHO the Marines make a good strike force...but at all levels, and especially the JTF level, they are inflexible, short-sighted, and dogmatic...these are not good characteristics for training foreign troops...

[Sacamuelas]

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

JasonSw2,
Much of what you reference has already been asked and answered here in other threads. Try "Marine SOCOM" in the search button.

As Sir Harsey has indicated, some of the issues in this thread have been hashed out before. The search button would have brought up this old thread from earlier this year.

Hopefully, this will prevent some redundancy.
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ne+corps+socom

[Tubbs]

Originally Posted by lksteve

my experience with Uncle Sam's Misguided Children in Somalia left me unimpressed with the Marines as an organization capable of sustaining long-term operations...hell, they don't even have their own medics...how are they going to sustain a force they are training...? they don't have their own engineers...how are they going to construct training facilities...? if it ain't on the boat, where are they going to get stuff from...?
IMNSHO the Marines make a good strike force...but at all levels, and especially the JTF level, they are inflexible, short-sighted, and dogmatic...these are not good characteristics for training foreign troops...

Having spent two years working in operations, the Marine Corps is not designed for long term operations. We are set up and trained for short 30-60 day operations, that may, or may not be piecemeal based off of a 6 month deployment schedule (not OPSEC, you can find this out on Google). Things like NEO's, TRAP missions, Embassy re-inforcements, Global AT duties, ect. That is why our operational force is designed around the concept of the MEU(SOC). The Marine Corps is not designed to be an occupational force. We cannot and should not do the job of the Army. This includes training indigenous troops. We are not trained to accomplish this type of mission, and lack of training will produce similar results to that of stupidy in a situation where proper training is required to function.
That being said I believe that Force Recon was added to SOCOM for two reasons.
1. To windfall a precieved shortage in trained SF operators brought on by lagging numbers in our armed forces (resulting in lagging SF recruitment).
2. Force Recon is set up to operate reconassance missions that no other branch of SF is designed to do. SEAL's are designed for direct action and amphibious missions, DELTA for AT, army SF (I won't use the GB word ) for infiltration and Force Recon for deep recon. Each can function in different operational roles, but they function best in the role they were set up for. Thus adding Force Recon to SOCOM gives the additional capabilities without the hassle of inter agency coordination (which in my limited experience can be quite painfull).

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Tubbs

Having spent two years working in operations, the Marine Corps is not designed for long term operations. We are set up and trained for short 30-60 day operations, that may, or may not be piecemeal based off of a 6 month deployment schedule (not OPSEC, you can find this out on Google). Things like NEO's, TRAP missions, Embassy re-inforcements, Global AT duties, ect. That is why our operational force is designed around the concept of the MEU(SOC). The Marine Corps is not designed to be an occupational force. We cannot and should not do the job of the Army. This includes training indigenous troops. We are not trained to accomplish this type of mission, and lack of training will produce similar results to that of stupidy in a situation where proper training is required to function.
That being said I believe that Force Recon was added to SOCOM for two reasons.
1. To windfall a precieved shortage in trained SF operators brought on by lagging numbers in our armed forces (resulting in lagging SF recruitment).
2. Force Recon is set up to operate reconassance missions that no other branch of SF is designed to do. SEAL's are designed for direct action and amphibious missions, DELTA for AT, army SF (I won't use the GB word ) for infiltration and Force Recon for deep recon. Each can function in different operational roles, but they function best in the role they were set up for. Thus adding Force Recon to SOCOM gives the additional capabilities without the hassle of inter agency coordination (which in my limited experience can be quite painfull).

Tubbs:

You need to stick to talking about a topic you are familiar with, like the Corps.

There is no shortfall in SF recruiting, and SF has been doing Strat Recon (much deeper than the Marines). SF was established, in part, to do deep penetration missions in Eastern Europe and the USSR in the 50's, with a good number of the missions being SR.

You also need to learn the difference between SF and SOF.

TR

[QRQ 30]

Force Recon is set up to operate reconassance missions that no other branch of SF is designed to do

I beg your pardon! Nobody has even come close to accomplishing reconnaisance missions, short and deep penetration as well as SF Recon in MACV SOG and probably today in the GWOT.. Read Secret Commandos and tell me the marines had anything remotely comparable..

Back on the subject, I thought they were going to assign Jarheads to a training roll.

I'm not much for beating the drums or my chest but sometimes I just gotta!!

[Tubbs]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Tubbs:

You need to stick to talking about a topic you are familiar with, like the Corps.

There is no shortfall in SF recruiting, and SF has been doing Strat Recon (much deeper than the Marines). SF was established, in part, to do deep penetration missions in Eastern Europe and the USSR in the 50's, with a good number of the missions being SR.

You also need to learn the difference between SF and SOF.

TR

This was just info that I was given by a friend who is still in operations. I am just diseminating it. I am not claiming to be an expert on the subject.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Tubbs

Having spent two years working in operations....

Force Recon is set up to operate reconassance missions that no other branch of SF is designed to do.

You need to do some more research.


Doc

[Tubbs]

Originally Posted by QRQ 30

I beg your pardon! Nobody has even come close to accomplishing reconnaisance missions, short and deep penetration as well as SF Recon in MACV SOG and probably today in the GWOT.. Read Secret Commandos and tell me the marines had anything remotely comparable..

Back on the subject, I thought they were going to assign Jarheads to a training roll.

I'm not much for beating the drums or my chest but sometimes I just gotta!!

Hey, I'm just one of the little guys. I'm not about to touch that one. I may have a flair for puttin my foot in my mouth but I'm not that good at it.
Any yes, after they initially reassinged FR to SOCOM they decieded to put them into a role where they would train foreign militarys. I guess due in part to their roel in training the Georgian military.