Air Force Green Berets - Page 3

Five-O · 10-07-2006, 09:47

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/

The above link establishes who the combatants are. The Army, with help from the great USMC, carries the burden of the combat casualties.

**The Reaper** · 10-07-2006, 09:56

Those who wanted to look the bad guys right in the eyes and put a hole between his running lights joined the Army or the Marines as Combat Arms soldiers, or as Navy SEALs.

I would put in an unsolicted plug for the Navy Corpsmen serving alongside the Marines and the AF PJs and CCTs serving on the ground with my brothers in the box.

They are bleeding and dying in the dust beside us.

Thanks for your service!

Good gouge, JLF. Leadership changing uniforms for morale. Saw it with the last Army Chief of Staff. It never ends.

TR

Fox · 10-09-2006, 04:28

Quote:

Those who wanted to look the bad guys right in the eyes and put a hole between his running lights joined the Army or the Marines as Combat Arms soldiers, or as Navy SEALs.

I would put in an unsolicted plug for the Navy Corpsmen serving alongside the Marines and the AF PJs and CCTs serving on the ground with my brothers in the box.

They are bleeding and dying in the dust beside us.

Thanks for your service!

Good gouge, JLF. Leadership changing uniforms for morale. Saw it with the last Army Chief of Staff. It never ends.

TR

Nicely said, Reaper. Being the son of two retired Air Force parents. I think they would both appreciate those words. Though they aren't too keen on the idea of me joining the Army. I just think that has to do with the Silver and Blue running through their vains.

In respect to my dad I thought I'd throw this link up for some folks interested in the history of Special Operations in the Air Force. At least the CCT aspect of it.http://www.specialtactics.com/ccthistory.shtml

It's probably not needed but it's a nice follow up to Reaper's post. Everyone does their job. Of course some people do a bit more heavy

.

As far as the 'Green' beret goes it's tacky and if it is being used as a recruiting tool that would make it a much more saddening aspect to the issue. I have no say in it so I won't b****. But I've said my .02 on the subject.

Back to lurking

Take care & Stay cool.

Monsoon65 · 10-09-2006, 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Leadership changing uniforms for morale. Saw it with the last Army Chief of Staff. It never ends.TR

It goes right along with the idea of bringing back the leather A2 flight jacket back in the late 80's, early 90's. I feel bad if the AF thinks the only reason I'll stay in is for a jacket or a special patch. Hey, right now they are moving to make an "AF ground combat award". I already predict fighting over that. "No, I fought harder than you, I deserve that." "No you don't, I do!" "You guys are pogues, I'm the one that fights, gimme!!" I give up. As NDD said, if it helps you get thru the week, knock yourself out. What do I know; I shoot electrons!

Seems that people can't remember it's a team concept. I can't fly unless maintenance keeps the planes fixed. No one can do their jobs unless the cooks keep us fed and the admin guys push the mountains of paperwork.

Basenshukai · 10-09-2006, 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monsoon65

It goes right along with the idea of bringing back the leather A2 flight jacket back in the late 80's, early 90's. I feel bad if the AF thinks the only reason I'll stay in is for a jacket or a special patch. Hey, right now they are moving to make an "AF ground combat award". I already predict fighting over that. "No, I fought harder than you, I deserve that." "No you don't, I do!" "You guys are pogues, I'm the one that fights, gimme!!" I give up. As NDD said, if it helps you get thru the week, knock yourself out. What do I know; I shoot electrons!

Seems that people can't remember it's a team concept. I can't fly unless maintenance keeps the planes fixed. No one can do their jobs unless the cooks keep us fed and the admin guys push the mountains of paperwork.

Why not make the AF guys able to get the same awards (for instance, CIB, CAB, etc.) as their ground combat brothers they are fighting with. I've seen AF personnel with Ranger tabs, so this can't be that complicated to do. In this way, there is already a standard in place and it wouldn't lessen the award. Heck, I earned my CIB in a in-your-face firefight. However, I know many guys - same rank and MOS - that earned theirs sitting inside a FOB while an enemy rocket fell 200 meters away. Finally, we are not that stuck on badges. At least in SF Group, I've only seen like three people wear their "pin-on" metal CIBs along with any other medals (on the ACUs). No one seems to give it that much importance. I know I don't.

Joe-Boo · 10-09-2006, 19:47

Fox...thanks for the plug for CCT.

Pass along some info about your dad to me will ya, via Private Message. Curious if I know him.

PL

Monsoon65 · 10-09-2006, 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basenshukai

Why not make the AF guys able to get the same awards (for instance, CIB, CAB, etc.) as their ground combat brothers they are fighting with. I've seen AF personnel with Ranger tabs, so this can't be that complicated to do. In this way, there is already a standard in place and it wouldn't lessen the award. Heck, I earned my CIB in a in-your-face firefight. However, I know many guys - same rank and MOS - that earned theirs sitting inside a FOB while an enemy rocket fell 200 meters away. Finally, we are not that stuck on badges. At least in SF Group, I've only seen like three people wear their "pin-on" metal CIBs along with any other medals (on the ACUs). No one seems to give it that much importance. I know I don't.

You're preaching to the choir, brother. A lot of AF truck drivers were awarded combat patches for working with the Army. They were told that once they get back to Mother Blue, they come off. I think that they should be allowed to wear combat patches on their BDUs, and if they have earned a CIB/CAB/CMB, they can wear it on their dress uniforms. Why waste money on designing an AF combat award of some sort when the Army has done all the work???

They initially tried something along these lines once. The AF expeditionary ribbon was to be awarded with a gold border if you were in combat. Aircrew, ground pounder, whatever. If you were in a combat zone, you got it. Problem was that the idea got perverted somewhere and it was changed to "providing combat support". That meant weenies in the US were given it for doing UAV work (kind of like the guys that got Bronze Stars for doing that same for Kosovo. They were in Missouri)!!!

I believe that the regs say you can only were Army awards like that when attached to an Army unit. TACPs that have Air Assault wings only can wear them when with their Army unit, but have to remove them when they get assigned to an AF base. I think this is ignored, and rightly so.

GunPig · 10-10-2006, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basenshukai

Why not make the AF guys able to get the same awards (for instance, CIB, CAB, etc.) as their ground combat brothers they are fighting with. I've seen AF personnel with Ranger tabs, so this can't be that complicated to do. In this way, there is already a standard in place and it wouldn't lessen the award. Heck, I earned my CIB in a in-your-face firefight. However, I know many guys - same rank and MOS - that earned theirs sitting inside a FOB while an enemy rocket fell 200 meters away. Finally, we are not that stuck on badges. At least in SF Group, I've only seen like three people wear their "pin-on" metal CIBs along with any other medals (on the ACUs). No one seems to give it that much importance. I know I don't.

Right you are. The traditional lines of service responsibilites have become blurred to a large degree. AF has shooters just like everyone else except a lot fewer than the other branches. Just ask a TACP who actually lives with the Army what he thinks of all of his "cake" job. Perceptions and stereotypes do not make their roles any less significant. As far as awards go, they don't mean much to real professionals...there's a lot of things more important than awards. The awards system will never be "fair"...but that's only if you care about them. Coming back home with all your limbs and wits about you trump any award a person could get.

GunPig

GunPig · 10-10-2006, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-O

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/

The above link establishes who the combatants are. The Army, with help from the great USMC, carries the burden of the combat casualties.

Does not the AF inflict heavy casualties on the opposing force upon request of ground terminal attack controllers? Do you have to suffer big losses to be considered a "combatant"? Please explain.

Thanks,
GunPig

**The Reaper** · 10-10-2006, 20:14

The discussion is a bit like the one that was had within the Army on the award of the CIB and the need for the CAB.

Frankly, I have always been of the belief that if you wanted to be a ground combatant, you joined the infantry or SF and got the infantry awards. If you wanted to be an aircrew member (or a support troop), have a hot meal and visit the club every night, and sleep on clean sheets in air conditioned shelters, you did not have that desire and gave up that right.

Those who are forced into ground combat by necessity are not really volunteers for it, and this will only serve to muddy the line between male and female roles as well. The fact that your FOB was attacked and you manned a gun may make you valorous, but it does not make you eligible for a CIB unless you were there as an infantry or SF soldier. The CAB was intended to award those who served in non-direct combat branches and IMHO, to take pressure off of giving them a ground combat award like the CIB.

I could even see giving the tankers awards, as again IMHO, they are engaging the enemy in a direct fire mode on the ground, and given the number of AT weapons, are at serious risk for enemy AT direct fire.

This may be an unpopular thing to say, but those in support, delivering indirect fire, or those delivering fires from the air are not eligible for ground combat awards, and indeed, have their own set of service and valor awards.

I have no issues with issuing support troops who are attached some sort of distinguishing award, but I do not think that they should receive CIBs.

The awarding of multiple Silver Stars to AF officers who were flying routine CAS missions in F-15s against little, if any threat earlier in Afghanistan has kind of jaded me on how the AF does valor awards. I can see putting in an attached PJ or CCT guy (or Navy Corpsmen attached to Marine infantry units) for any valor awards from either service for which they earn and are eligible. I think that is taking care of people entrusted to you.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

**Team Sergeant** · 10-11-2006, 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by GunPig

Does not the AF inflict heavy casualties on the opposing force upon request of ground terminal attack controllers? Do you have to suffer big losses to be considered a "combatant"? Please explain.

Thanks,
GunPig

Gunpig,

Unlike most I've worked with AF "Special Tactics" or AF "Commandos" more than enough to know their capabilities. (We all know who did the "High Risk" CSAR's during Desert Storm, etc.)

You failed to mention the only other unit with the capability/mission to be a "terminal attack controllers" or that can survey/set up a runway for fixed wing aircraft, survey a HLZ or DZ etc.
If you have read the Joint CSAR publication it states the Special Forces Limitations to CSAR is that the CSAR is "High Priority (high risk) and warrant the use of Special Forces soldiers". Yes, I've been to a few joint Special Operations CSAR conferences and TACP school.

Your support to conventional units such as the 82nd and the Army Rangers is unparalleled. But do not attempt to come here and blow smoke, it ain’t going to cut it with me. Personally I've never heard of AF support troops going behind enemy lines and engaging the enemy unless they were in the company of combatants.

This thread is over.

Team Sergeant