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Old 10-10-2015, 12:37   #1
Team Sergeant
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The Ukraine, a time line to Freedom

Alright, I admit my background is the Middle East/ Asia and not Europe/Russia.

What's going on in the Ukraine? Should we be assisting the Freedom fighters against the extremely corrupt communist government?

Is it Ukrainians against Ukrainians?

After reading and watching some of the brutal beating of unarmed civilians by the Ukraine police I can only imagine at the level of corruption in the Ukrainian government.

Why did the EU turn their backs on the Ukrainian people? Fear of the Russians?
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Old 10-10-2015, 17:28   #2
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Hard to judge without ground-truth. Many over there seem to resent what they see as a US-installed gov't - and ripped off as citizens as a result, especially when they identify ethnically as Russian. (The "don't muck around in my hemisphere" thing isn't restricted to the US.) Doesn't seem the EU has the gumption to push-back against much of anything the current administration does & certainly they have their own fish to fry.

Interesting over the transom note from a Russian, on a web-blog here, that discusses one Russian's viewpoint vis a vis Putin, Crimean situation, and the Ukraine. More here than meets the eye.
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Old 10-11-2015, 00:02   #3
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Alright, I admit my background is the Middle East/ Asia and not Europe/Russia.

What's going on in the Ukraine? Should we be assisting the Freedom fighters against the extremely corrupt communist government?

Is it Ukrainians against Ukrainians?

After reading and watching some of the brutal beating of unarmed civilians by the Ukraine police I can only imagine at the level of corruption in the Ukrainian government.

Why did the EU turn their backs on the Ukrainian people? Fear of the Russians?
Ukraine is a chocolate mess. Imagine an entire country with a multiple personality disorder, yet all of the personalities are insanely paranoid. The Ukrainian national anthem captures the sadness well: https://www.*******.com/watch?v=bHzHlSLhtmM

It is Ukrainians vs each other, fueled by a divided country that is part pro-Europe and part pro-Russian. Corruption? Of course, it's on par with most of Africa, and everyone there knows it.

Why did the EU turn away? Without a doubt it was fear of Russia. Europe is dependent on Russian energy. If Gazprom turns off the pumps, Europeans die.

Should we be there helping the freedom fighters? Tough question in the best of times with solid leadership in place in our gov't, but given our current political quagmire I'd say H-E-double hockey sticks- NO. Our politicians would find a way to make life even more miserable for the Ukrainians. Russia demands a buffer zone between it and the west, and unless we fix the problem (Russia) the borderlands will all remain in turmoil.
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Old 10-11-2015, 08:32   #4
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Ukrainians wake up!

Did a lot of reading and I've now gotten up to speed on the Ukraine's problems.

If the folks fighting for the Ukrainian Freedom want to make advances they need to target their own "Russian" Ukrainian politicians and kill them.

Nothing is going to change in the Ukraine until they start killing the corrupt Ukrainian politicians.

Stop fighting with the Russian Separatists and kill the corrupt Ukrainian politicians. Do this and watch the changes.

Also target the infrastructure of the Russian Separatists, turn off their electricity and target communications. Winter is almost here.

It's time for the face of War to change, let's kill the folks that start it instead of each other.
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Old 10-11-2015, 09:47   #5
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Stop fighting with the Russian Separatists and kill the corrupt Ukrainian politicians. Do this and watch the changes.

Also target the infrastructure of the Russian Separatists, turn off their electricity and target communications. Winter is almost here.
It seems the separatists object to the "annointed" Ukrainian political situation nearly as much as those currently viewing themselves as 'pure' Ukrainians, which may have driven them hard in bonding to their Russian ethnicity. (Just conjecture on my part.) If Ukrainian nationals address the first thing on your list, do you think it mitigates to any degree the need for the latter? Or do the separatists remain one of those "sooner or later" type things anyway?
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Old 10-12-2015, 13:31   #6
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It would seem Russia is once again attempting to annex Ukraine and the Ukrainians are not having it.
The only way the Russians can get away with it is to support those from within the Ukraine.

The Ukrainians need to focus their combined might and take out the Russian separatist leaders/shot callers. And they need to target the infrastructure of the Russian Separatists.

Do that and it will have one of two outcomes, Russia will invade or they will back off. I doubt they will invade with the Western World watching.

Fighting for ones Freedom comes at a high cost.
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Old 10-12-2015, 14:09   #7
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Is the Russian activity in Syria a distraction to enable continued turmoil stirring in Ukraine? After annexing Crimea it seems clear the next goal is overland LOCs through Russian controlled territory.
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Old 10-12-2015, 14:53   #8
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Is the Russian activity in Syria a distraction to enable continued turmoil stirring in Ukraine? After annexing Crimea it seems clear the next goal is overland LOCs through Russian controlled territory.
This is the USSR's/ Russia modus operandi and they've been using the same model for centuries. Syria is nothing but a weapons testing, pilot training venue for them.
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Old 10-12-2015, 15:06   #9
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Syria is nothing but a weapons testing, pilot training venue for them.
I seem to recall Spain being such a convenient venue for the Germans... something like 80-odd yrs ago.
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Old 10-13-2015, 02:51   #10
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My Opinion:
It is exactly Civil war in Ukraine between Ukrainians supported by Russia and West from different sides.
It is interesting question what side deserves "Freedom fighters" name in this war.

Russians and Ukrainians are one people. Ukrainian (as nationality) - a term coined by artificially in Austria-Hungary at the turn of 19-20 centuries. Prior to that, the inhabitants of border areas was called "Ukrainians", regardless of their nationality. Such "ukrainians" was in Pskov region or in Serbska Kraina for example. Krai (Край) = edge or border.

Until what time so called Ukrainians call themselves Russian people, how do you think?
Since 1893 in the United States published emigre newspaper "Freedom" of pro-Ukrainian orientation. It is still publishing, and on the official website of the newspaper hanging archive all its issues. I followed, when the newspaper was first started writing about the Ukrainian people and found exactly the issue where the word "Russian people", previously called themselves Ukrainians, suddenly changed to "Ukrainian people". Want to know what date it was?

Here is the first edition of "Freedom" for the September 15, 1893. Yes, under the headline is Shevchenko quote. But even following inscription: "Chasopis (chronicle) for ruska people unto americium." Russian, not Ukrainian.

Let's see another issue for the same year. Similarly. For the Russian people. Even language bears little resemblance to the Ukrainian, but rather it is the Little Russian dialect of ancient. If one of you do not believe me, you do get into that newspaper "Freedom" official website, there a lot of these issues, it's not a fake. Every year, out of 50, and then more and more issues. And nowhere in the issues of the 19th century there is no mention of the Ukrainians. They call themselves Russian people.
And now the issue of the 20th century, with the January 4th, 1900. "For ruska people", "Ruska People's Union". They themselves are called.
Look for the issue in January 1910. Then they say "Ruthenian People's Union of americium." Well, OK. "Ruthenian", "Ruska", but in any case not Ukrainian.
And here it is, the latest release, which refers to the Russian people. For the 13th October 1914. However, modestly referred to "RN" (Narod (народ) = people). But in the upper right corner you can read the "Russian People's Union".
And in the next issue, 15 th October 1914, the abbreviation "RN" has changed to "U.N.". And next to it is written in English is not "R", and "UKR". And in the top right corner of the already written "Ukrainian People's Union":
After this there is no mention "Russian" or "Ruthenian people." Here's another number, the last in 1914, in this and all subsequent issues they write about Ukrainians.
From all this we can conclude that the Ukrainians were not 140 thousand years ago, but exactly 100 years ago, in 1914. Until 1914, even they called themselves Russian people.


Ukraine and Syria both are just different parts of a large fence wich US mounting between Western Europe and Russia to interfere integration of russian resources with european money and technologies.
It is STRATFOR founder and chairman George Friedman said that the development of a German-Russian alliance most threatening to America's position of the world's lone superpower.
Two World wars were started in fact to prevent this alliance.
Ukraine - one of main historical transit locations on Berlin - Moscow line. As military route, as gas pipeline route, or simply as land route.
In order to reliably block the Russian ground routes to Europe, you need only two hostile to Russia countries: Poland and Ukraine. Poland you already have. Ukraine in the transformation process.
Syria was practically the only potentially safe place to mount an alternative pipelines from Persian Gulf through Jordan to Turkey and further to Europe. We all know why Iraq and Iran are not suitable for this.
When the agreement failed, Assad suddenly became a bloody tyrant.
Russian activity in Syria and Russian activity in Ukraine are not a distraction to each other but just two russian hands in different places. Both hands defends russian interests at the same time.

Last edited by SpNkid; 10-13-2015 at 05:36.
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Old 10-13-2015, 06:09   #11
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My Opinion:
It is exactly Civil war in Ukraine between Ukrainians supported by Russia and West from different sides.
It is interesting question what side deserves "Freedom fighters" name in this war.
You don't think the Ukrainians realize what they are fighting for? You've not seen the many documentaries on the brutal beatings, murder, population control measures forced on the people of the Ukraine by their Russian overlords?

It's clear to see as many of the "former" USSR countries want their freedom. Now it's the Ukraine's turn at pushing off the communist yoke and becoming a free nation.
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Old 10-13-2015, 06:58   #12
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You don't think the Ukrainians realize what they are fighting for? You've not seen the many documentaries on the brutal beatings, murder, population control measures forced on the people of the Ukraine by their Russian overlords?

It's clear to see as many of the "former" USSR countries want their freedom. Now it's the Ukraine's turn at pushing off the communist yoke and becoming a free nation.
I think Ukrainians (I using this term as citizenship issue) are pretty different.
I know a majority of people in Ukraine who originally speak russian and sorrow about USSR collapse, honoring Red army heroes, who win Hitler, and minority of another who originally speak ukrainian, honoring Hitler's collaborators and naively wish of european perspective.
Pocket media create a false picture that absolutely all people wish to European family and a few who thinks another way, and you know what? Pro-soviet and pro-russian people in modern Ukraine are not only are shamed. Many of they are jailed or killed just for their beliefs. And society (in media picture) is applauding to this situation.
And yes, I've seen the many of the brutal beatings, murder, population control measures forced on the people of the modern Ukraine by their overlords, wich not from Russia.
And yes, I've seen the many documentaries on the brutal beatings, murder, population control measures forced on the people in the other countries including USA.

Last edited by SpNkid; 10-13-2015 at 16:11.
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Old 10-13-2015, 09:11   #13
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I think Ukrainians (I using this term as sitizenship issue) are pretty different.
I know a majority of people in Ukraine who originally speak russian and sorrow about USSR collapse, honoring Red army heroes, who win Hitler, and minority of another who originally speak ukrainian, honoring Hitler's collaborators and naively wish of european perspective.
Does the majority you speak of see the current Ukrainian regime as a US-proxy, or as a fascist as a substitute for communist, or both? Genuinely curious.
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Old 10-13-2015, 15:34   #14
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Does the majority you speak of see the current Ukrainian regime as a US-proxy, or as a fascist as a substitute for communist, or both? Genuinely curious.
Yes it is. Except, perhaps, a term "Communist". Communism nor in Ukraine, nor even in the Soviet Union was never existed. It is a chimera. Previously, there was socialism, and then suddenly came capitalism.

But in general, you guessed right. Adequate people thinks exactly this way.
Are they right? Let's try to check.

Is this regime fascistic or nazi?
Are you aware of the existence of the battalion "Azov", officially used Nazi symbols? On the Internet a lot of material, where the soldiers of this and other battalions openly used the Nazi salute, and despite that they received awards from the hands of top officials. Google "Nazi Azov" and see.
Maybe you do not know, but the country's prime minister last year called the inhabitants of the pro-Russian regions as subhumans and ceased to pay to oldest of them honestly earned retirement, despite official statements that the Donbass - is Ukraine.
People are intimidated by the prospect of criminal prosecution or the threat of physical violence or murder for their views. I do not know, do you know in America, but in Ukraine over the past year and a half, hundreds of people were jailed for such crimes like a public statement against the war or public sympathy for the Donetsk rebels, who, unlike the rest of the silent majority, is not kept silent, but took up arms and said "no." Dozens of people, including opposition politicians and journalists, were killed for political reasons.
Even I am in our conversation here and now deserved a prison term if some SBU reader will appear here.
It turns out that the regime is really a fascistic.

Is this regime pro-American?
Let us remember, Assistant Secretary of State and Ambassador of wich country met with militant protesters in Kiev. Let us remember which country has spent on the development of democracy in Ukraine $ 5 billion. Which country currently allocates money for weapons Ukraine. Which country is closing its eyes to the serious violations of human rights and freedoms in Ukraine, as well as rampant Nazi military units, encouraged by the government. "He is son of a bitch but he is our son of a bitch", isn't it?
It turns out that the regime is really a US-proxy.
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Old 10-13-2015, 17:12   #15
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Thank you for your comments & candor. It ties with string some individual thoughts I'd had.
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