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Old 02-17-2013, 21:26   #31
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Originally Posted by The Reaper View Post
When the states and municipalities with the tough laws are asked why the laws don't work, they frequently blame the states around them with less draconian firearms laws.

The really curious question is why those states with the less restrictive firearms laws, also have lower firearms related crime rates themselves.

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Old 02-18-2013, 08:32   #32
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This has to be part of the plan to fundamentally change America. Democrat or Republican, the push for unconstitutional gun restrictions being proposed by Democrat Party leaders at the White House and across the nation in the Democrat Party led states is not the way to solve the many problems that face our nation. Divisive tactics by nature do not support unity. It is more true today than ever before, United We Stand, Divided We Fall.

What the leadership of the Democrats are trying to do is create felons out of law-abiding citizens by passing anti-gun laws that are proven to be ineffective against the type of gun violence these laws are supposed to be targeting. Why focus this much energy and political capital on a section of society that is not a problem when there are so many other actual issues that need this effort? Because the Americans who believe in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights have been marked as possible enemies of the State by this administration and they even published this belief soon after the prez was elected in 2008. It will likely get worse before it gets better.
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Old 02-18-2013, 10:25   #33
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MOO-

Unfortunately I think expecting the Democrat controlled legislatures of any state-be it CO, NY, CA, wherever-to learn a lesson from the unsuccessful gun control laws previously passed and realize it won't work as advertised is an expectation doomed for disappointment. As has been previously pointed out in various threads here, Chicago rather proudly has some of the toughest laws in the nation as well as the highest murder rate, and you don't see the gun control supporters acknowledging the abject failure there. Why would we think those State governments would acknowledge the failure of policies similar to those they wish to initiate?

IF these laws are passed in CO it will be up to the voters to change them either through the courts or the voting booth.
The libs probably won't change their minds - you are correct. However, the facts are the facts and the middle ground folks should hear what actually happened in Massachusetts.

Moreover, I have had some success in shaming liberal legislators and bureaucrats in the past with facts that may be contrary to thier narrative. Of course, times have changed and there is no longer a sense of shame when a liberal outright ignores experience. The means do seem to justify the end to the liberal gun grabbers. But IMO we need to keep up the pressure in the public domain -- for a variety of reasons.
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Old 02-18-2013, 13:27   #34
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The libs probably won't change their minds - you are correct. However, the facts are the facts and the middle ground folks should hear what actually happened in Massachusetts.

Moreover, I have had some success in shaming liberal legislators and bureaucrats in the past with facts that may be contrary to thier narrative. Of course, times have changed and there is no longer a sense of shame when a liberal outright ignores experience. The means do seem to justify the end to the liberal gun grabbers. But IMO we need to keep up the pressure in the public domain -- for a variety of reasons.

I don't necessarily disagree with you that we need to keep the pressure up, or that those 'middle of the road' people need to be shown the disparity between the hype and the facts. My point was simply that those states that are controlled by Democrats ( or liberals hiding in Republican clothing) will not learn the lessons of the past. Hell-Massachusetts didn't even learn the lesson! Gov Patrick has announced he is going to introduce legislation to tighten gun laws in the state even more-& it has a good chance of going through as both Houses are heavily Democrat contolled.
IMO-the greater need isn't necessarily to educate on the failures of past gun contol laws so much as to educate on the need to actually GO to the voting booth and vote for candidates who agree with your POV because especially in local & state levels, every vote truly does count
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Old 02-18-2013, 13:52   #35
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I don't necessarily disagree with you that we need to keep the pressure up, or that those 'middle of the road' people need to be shown the disparity between the hype and the facts. My point was simply that those states that are controlled by Democrats ( or liberals hiding in Republican clothing) will not learn the lessons of the past. Hell-Massachusetts didn't even learn the lesson! Gov Patrick has announced he is going to introduce legislation to tighten gun laws in the state even more-& it has a good chance of going through as both Houses are heavily Democrat contolled.
IMO-the greater need isn't necessarily to educate on the failures of past gun contol laws so much as to educate on the need to actually GO to the voting booth and vote for candidates who agree with your POV because especially in local & state levels, every vote truly does count
I hear you.

We are on the same side.

The middle is where the war of ideas is most often fought and won.

May the good folks and the politicians in Colorado see the light.
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Old 02-18-2013, 15:00   #36
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Colorado say goodbye to liberty, freedom and MAGPUL.

Update: The Colorado House just passed the magazine limit 34-31, with three Democrats voting no. On to the state Senate. Meanwhile, three more gun control measures up for recorded votes today

Colorado House passes bills on background check fees, universal background checks,15-round magazine limit

http://www.mercurynews.com/politics-...in-but-limited

A bill requiring gun purchasers to pay the costs of their own background checks cleared the Colorado House on Monday, the same day the chamber passed bills requiring background checks on private firearms sales and limiting gun magazines to 15 rounds.

House Bill 1228, which requires gun buyers to pay the cost of their state background checks with the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, cleared the House on a 33-32 vote. Four Democrats voted against the bill.

The fee would range from $5 to $12.

"This bill has absolutely nothing, zero, to do with public safety," said Rep. Brian DelGrosso, R-Loveland. "This bill is taking advantage of a tragedy that's out there to demonize law-abiding citizens who are exercising their Second Amendment rights and using it as a way to generate $4 million to $5 million in increased taxes on these people."

But Rep. Dan Pabon, D-Denver, noted that the background fee on gun purchases was nothing new and had been enacted originally under a Republican-controlled legislature in 1994. The state ended the fee in 1999 because at that time, the fee had generated so much money, it was going to exceed revenue limits under the state's Taxpayer's Bill of Rights.

"So, while I would like to say we are trailblazers in this building," Pabon said, "that is not the case."

Several states, from California to Pennsylvania, require residents to pay fees that vary between $2 and $25 for background checks R-Dacono, said current lawmakers weren't responsible for that.

"Rep. Pabon, please don't hold us accountable for the sins of our forefathers," Saine said.

The vote on the fee for background checks was the third of four recorded votes being taken on a package of gun bills. Earlier in the day, House Bill 1229, to require background checks on private sales and transfers, passed on a 36-29 vote, with one Democrat voting against, while House Bill 1224, limiting gun magazines to 15 rounds, on a 34-31 vote, with three Democrats voting against it.

Early in the guns debate Monday, Rep. Ed Vigil, D-Fort Garland, stood at the well of the House — with the entire GOP caucus standing at the same time — and said he would vote against all four gun bills. Vigil described how his family came to Colorado in the 1850s.

"They carried weapons to settle this land. This is part of our heritage," he said. "I cannot turn my back on that."

Speaking in favor of the background checks bill, state Rep. Beth McCann, D-Denver, said it was unfair that buyers of guns at retail outlets and gun shows had to undergo the checks but people buying guns from individuals did not.

"This bill is about a level playing field for everyone who wants to purchase a gun in Colorado," McCann said.

But Republicans arguing against the bill said the required checks would not stop criminals from getting guns and would be unenforceable without gun registration.

"This bill will not prevent criminals from getting guns, it will just require them to go a different avenue to get those guns," said Lori Saine, R-Dacono.

While the bill says background checks are not required for transfers from immediate family members — defined as spouses, children, siblings, grandparents and grandchildren — it doesn't include in-laws, aunts and uncles, nieces and nephews and cousins.

Rep. Polly Lawrence, R-Littleton, said it was unreasonable for family members to ask each other to undergo background checks when giving each other firearms as gifts.

McCann, one of the gun magazine bill's sponsors, said high-capacity magazines had been used in numerous high-profile spree shootings, citing in particular the case of Jared Loughner, who used one in the Tucson shooting in which U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot in the head.

"It was because he (Loughner) was reloading one of those high-capacity magazines that he was prevented from killing additional people." McCann said, saying Loughner was only tacked because of the pause needed to reload.

House Minority Leader Mark Waller, R-Colorado Springs, said it was "absolutely inconsistent" for Democrats to have added an amendment to the bill in an attempt to keep Erie -based gun magazine manufacturer Magpul from leaving the state. The amendment says manufacturers could still make high-capacity magazines for out-of-state sale.

"Apparently, they (high-capacity magazines) are not instruments of destruction when they're purchased outside the borders of Colorado," Waller said.

The House on Friday debated four gun bills for 12 hours as Democratic leaders threatened to stretch the debate into Saturday if Republicans continued to speak against the bills on the floor.

All the bills won initial approval in the House on voice votes Friday, but on Monday it was time for recorded votes and a more limited debate.

House rules limit debate during what is known as "third reading," or the final vote on a measure, to two trips to the microphone per lawmaker, who can only speak for a total of 10 minutes, although there are some exceptions.

Republicans are opposed to all four bills, which they alternately claim are unconstitutional, will do nothing for public safety or will drive business out of Colorado.

House Bill 1229 requires background checks for all gun transactions; House Bill 1226 involves concealed carry permits on campuses; House Bill 1228 institutes a fee for gun buyers to cover the cost of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation to perform background checks; and House Bill 1224 limits magazines to 15 rounds.
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Old 02-18-2013, 16:03   #37
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I was just contacted by CO Sen Aguilar (D-Denver) from one of my many outreaches to state politicians and she stated: "First and foremost I want to assure you that NONE of the bills will result in restriction of the constitutionally guaranteed right to bear arms. *These bills have not yet been referred to the Senate. *When they do come to the Senate, I will look at all sides before I make any decisions."

I replied that the 2nd Amendment included the words "shall not be infringed" and that what has already passed the house violates that concept. I tried to explain the reason IMO and according to documentation created during the ratification process that this amendment didn't pertain to hunting animals for food, it was to ensure American citizens were able to be comparatively armed as were the armies of the time so that "We the People" could protect our rights from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

I hope words work but I have a bad feeling about all of this and the direction the discussions are headed all across this land.
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Old 02-18-2013, 18:20   #38
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This is the idiocy that you Coloradons have to put up with....

.... Please take out your trash.


Colorado Democrat: Women Don’t Need Guns If They ‘Feel Like They’re Going To Be Raped’

Video at the link.
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Old 02-18-2013, 18:54   #39
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Salazar is a complete idiot. Call boxes and whistles!!
With legal marijuana and pending anti gun laws, this state will soon be a liberal paradise. California will send the more of their nuts here. The rest of the country will send their stoners.
I am disgusted beyond belief. :angry:
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Old 02-18-2013, 19:06   #40
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He makes the idiots On this island look smart. I feel your pain CO...........
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Old 02-18-2013, 20:32   #41
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I don't have any illegal magazines, they are just undocumented...
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Old 02-18-2013, 21:08   #42
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I don't have any illegal magazines, they are just undocumented...
Nice!
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Old 02-18-2013, 21:10   #43
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From the article:

Said Salazar:

“It’s why we have call boxes, it’s why we have safe zones, it’s why we have the whistles. Because you just don’t know who you’re gonna be shooting at. And you don’t know if you feel like you’re gonna be raped, or if you feel like someone’s been following you around or if you feel like you’re in trouble when you may actually not be, that you pop out that gun and you pop … pop around at somebody.”


Mr Salazar, I'm wondering how far into the attempted rape should I wait till I figure out if I'm actually in trouble? Maybe you can invent a "trouble meter" for us poor women to assess the level of danger. We'd be so thankful. By the way, please calibrate it for crackheads and politicians. Thank you.
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Old 02-19-2013, 00:38   #44
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I just posted this on Governor Hickenlooper's FB "wall".

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Governor Hickenlooper,

I have but one simple question for you Sir.

Who is it that you are currently working for?

Are you working for the current Presidential administration in Washington D.C., or are you working for the people of the state of Colorado?

As with the Constitution of these United States, the Preamble of the Constitution of the State of Colorado begins with ....."We, the people of Colorado, ...." Need I remind you Sir, that WE are YOUR employer(s).

If you sign into law the four pending bills, HB-1224, HB-1226, HB-1228, and HB-1229, that is, if they pass the Colorado Senate, then you Sir would tip your hand on just who it is that you are really working for.

As has been posted several times here on this "wall", the signing into law of these Bills would not only cost this state much needed jobs, but even more so, much needed revenue. Sportsman across this country have responded that they, and their families, will no longer come to this state and enjoy the wonders that abound within our boundaries ever again.

These following statements are taken from the Colorado Sportsmen Wildlife Fund website ..... "Crucial to the revenue base for Colorado is the hunting and fishing industry. The recreation opportunities offered in Colorado generate $1.6 billion annually.

The hunting and fishing industry is the largest source of tourism revenue for Colorado ~ more than $112 million generated annually in sales tax revenue for the state. This financial benefit affects every county, every front range and western slope community. In many communities, these revenues are the major source of income. In addition, the Colorado Division of Wildlife is funded exclusively by revenues from the sale of hunting and fishing licenses. Many of Colorado's urban dwellers have no concept of these facts. The loss of sportmen's dollars would mean thousands of lost jobs and would devastate many rural communities. Also, the end of hunting would lead to the loss of the Division of Wildlife to manage Colorado's wildlife. "

Is this the legacy you wish to leave by signing these four Bills ..... "The Man who single handedly, bankrupted the State of Colorado" ????

I pray to the Supreme Architect of the Universe that he give you clear vision and that you see the folly of these Bills and that they would hinder, more than help, the law abiding citizens of this great state.
What good it'll do, I have no idea. I have no clue if he reads the stuff posted on his FB wall or if he even cares. But Hickenlooper is going to open a whole new kettle of fish if he signs these bills into law. The revenue that is going to be lost will most definitely lead to this state becoming bankrupt .... much like California is now.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:06   #45
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“In order to continue to possess an assault weapon that was legally possessed on the effective date of this section, the person possessing shall … safely and securely store the assault weapon. The sheriff of the county may, no more than once per year, conduct an inspection to ensure compliance with this subsection.”

Language in a proposed Washington State law concerning so called assault weapons.
I wonder how people would feel if instead of the sheriff coming to your house to inspect your weapons he came to inspect the hard drive of your computer or your letters and documents.

U.S. Constitution - Amendment 2 Right to Bear Arms
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

U.S. Constitution - Amendment 4 Search and Seizure
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Well that’s two of the Bill of Rights getting trampled on in one State Bill.
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