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Old 05-21-2007, 16:09   #16
KevinB
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hmm... times like this I wonder about my armor.

I'm currently running DS in a CIRAS carrier -- the rationale for me was in a BMW, I could exit the vehicle. With a conventional plate it was near impossible.

I'd like ESAPI protection with Poly plate weight, and DS flexibility. I have no dog in the fight - but want the best for myself and the troops. It is some very interesting info that TR posted.



As for DocGKR and TR - wow this is like the haydays of LeMas


But what do I know I came from an Army that still uses Zylon...
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Old 05-21-2007, 16:15   #17
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Kevin:

Given that the DS has failed the NIJ testing at least three times and Army testing once, I hope that I am on better ground than someone who has just shot a couple of them.

Understood your point though.

Hope that the one you have works and keeps you safe.

TR
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Old 05-21-2007, 16:22   #18
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You and me both...
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Old 05-22-2007, 08:46   #19
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Did anyone else see the CNN coverage of the press conference? They showed the 47.5 pound SOV 3000 Level 4 Dragon Skin vest, with the bullet holes in it, and the disks delaminated.

When they asked Murray Neal why the vests tested by the Army failed, his reply "They lied."

Nice factual refutation. Judging for the comments over in the NBC pages, this sort of Jedi mind trick actually works on quite a few people.

I cannot believe that people will spend the time typing in a response without looking at any of the data first.

The majority who comment on the armor, rather than the war, seem to think that there is only one body armor manufacturer selling the Interceptor vest to the Army and that they are getting rich while hiring every Army retiree affiliated with the body armor program. In fact, there are six manufacturers of the ESAPI plates, versus only one (Pinnacle) for the Dragon Skin, and the 47.5 pound DS armor costs about twice as much as the Interceptor, with the company having a proven history of failing certification tests, lying about it, and providing defective products. Incidentally, retired Acquisition officers are highly restricted in their employment after retirement.

A lot of the posters seem to be wearing tinfoil hats and watching Oliver Stone conspiracy theory movies as well.

Incredible.

TR
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Old 05-22-2007, 09:44   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
When they asked Murray Neal why the vests tested by the Army failed, his reply "They lied."

Nice factual refutation. Judging for the comments over in the NBC pages, this sort of Jedi mind trick actually works on quite a few people.
TR
LOLOLOL

"Murray Neal" Quote, "THEY LIED"

An extremely intelligent response. Keep digging Murray Neal, you and your cronies are doing a fine job.

Where the hell is SFTT.org, defensereview.com and Mr David Crane now?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...052101297.html

Army Says Dragon Skin Armor Falls Short

By LOLITA C. BALDOR
The Associated Press
Monday, May 21, 2007; 7:39 PM

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Army, in a rare move Monday, released a barrage of test results showing that a privately-sold flexible body armor that some families have sought for their soldiers failed extensive military testing.

Pieces of the hefty Dragon Skin armor, with ragged holes torn through its yellow inner skin, were propped up on the floor in the Pentagon, as Army officials systematically detailed the battery of ammunition and temperature testing the armor failed.

Although the tests were done nearly a year ago, the Army declined to release details until Monday, after recent NBC News reports suggested that the Dragon Skin may be better than the Army-issued Interceptor armor.

As a result of the reports, some members of Congress have asked for an investigation into the matter, and others have asked the Army for more information.

"We take this personally," said Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, executive officer for the Army's armor testing program. "One third of the general officers in the United States Army have either a son or daughter either in theater (at war) today or (who) has been to theater."

Holding up an armor-piercing bullet, Brown showed video of the tests, including footage of officials peering into the bullet hole in the Dragon Skin armor. "At the end of the day, this one disc has to stop this round. It didn't. Thirteen times," he said.

In response, Murray Neal, president of Pinnacle Armor which produces Dragon Skin, suggested that the Army lied about some of the testing, and he questioned why the Army was counting shots that "were fired into the non-rifle defeating areas."

The body armor debate has raged almost since the Afghanistan and Iraq wars began, as the Army struggled at times to get all of the needed equipment to its soldiers _ both active and reserve. At times, family members around the country were raising money, having bake sales, and spending thousands of dollars of their own cash to buy armor and equipment for their loved ones going to war.

In some of those cases, families were considering buying Dragon Skin armor because they believed it would provide better protection. The Army Monday said it was releasing the test details to help prevent families from spending money on body armor that is not as good as the protection already issued to the soldiers.

Brown described "catastrophic failures" by the Dragon Skin armor, and said that in 13 of 48 shots, lethal armor-piercing rounds either shattered the discs that make up the armor, or completely penetrated the vest.

"Zero failures is the correct answer," he said. "One failure is sudden death and you lose the game."

Brown added that the armor failed to endure required temperatures shifts _ from minus 20 degrees to 120 above zero _ which weakened the adhesive holding the discs together. And he said that the Dragon Skin's heavy weight was also a problem for soldiers who need to carry a lot of gear.

The Dragon Skin, he said, weighs 47.5 pounds, compared to the Army-issued Interceptor armor, which weighs 28 pounds.

After seeing the latest television reports, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., sent a letter to Army Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey asking for more information and saying he's concerned that the Army may not be providing better body armor to the soldiers as quickly as possible.

And Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., sent a letter to the Government Accountability Office, a government watchdog agency, seeking an investigation to assess the body armor being used by the military.

Army officials said they would be going to Capitol Hill this week to talk to lawmakers about the armor issue.
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Old 05-22-2007, 09:46   #21
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Uhm Sir I just re-read this -- and "failed NIJ three times"?

So I'm a bit thick from landing on my head -- but is it now certified?
I'm getting this feeling that I'm like one of those Rwandan kids given "Dawa" to protect them by a witchdoctor...
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Old 05-22-2007, 09:52   #22
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don't buy it!

don't wear it!

it don't work yet!

pure and simple.
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Old 05-22-2007, 10:37   #23
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Dragon Skin Testing and the Truth

Army Defends Body Armor Quality
By Sgt. Sara Wood, USA
American Forces Press Service


WASHINGTON, May 21, 2007 – U.S. troops operating in Iraq and Afghanistan have the best body armor in the world, and the Army is constantly looking for ways to improve force protection, the general in charge of the program told reporters here today.
“Force protection is the No. 1 priority of the U.S. Army. We value our soldiers very highly, and we do everything we can do to ensure that they have the finest in force protection as they go into the battle,” Army Brig. Gen. R. Mark Brown, Program Executive Officer Soldier, said at a Pentagon news conference.

In response to a May 17 NBC News report challenging the Army’s use of Interceptor body armor vs. the newer “Dragon Skin” armor developed by Pinnacle Armor Inc., Brown today released information about the testing that ruled out Dragon Skin a year ago.

The tests were conducted May 16 to 19, 2006, at H.P. White labs near Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md. The Pinnacle armor was subjected to the same tests Interceptor body armor goes through, first being X-rayed and analyzed and then undergoing a series of live-fire tests, Brown said. The live-fire tests included room-temperature tests, harsh environment tests, and durability and drop tests.

Of the eight Pinnacle vests tested, four of them failed the tests, with 13 rounds penetrating completely on the first or second shot, Brown said. After the first complete penetration, the vests technically failed the test, but the Army continued the testing to be fair, he said.

The Pinnacle vests also were subjected to extreme temperature variations, from minus 25 degrees Fahrenheit to 120 degrees Fahrenheit, which would be a realistic cycle if the equipment was loaded onto a plane and flown to the Middle East, Brown said. These temperature tests caused the adhesive holding the Dragon Skin’s protective discs together to fail, and the discs gathered at the bottom of the vest, leaving gaps in protection, he said.

Brown also noted that the Dragon Skin vests are significantly heavier and thicker than the Interceptor vests. Dragon Skin vests in size extra large are 47.5 pounds and 1.7 to 1.9 inches thick; the Interceptor vests in size large, which offer an equivalent coverage area, weigh 28 pounds and are 1.3 inches thick.

“Bottom line is, it does not meet Army standards,” Brown said of the Pinnacle body armor.

Brown showed reporters videos of the tests, which were supervised by the chief executive officer of Pinnacle. He also displayed the actual vests that were tested, with markers showing the penetration sites.

The Army did not initially release the information about the tests because of possible security concerns, Brown said. “We are facing a very media-savvy enemy,” he said. “They’re not only media-savvy, they are Internet savvy. … Everything that we put out into the public domain, we pretty much assume that they get. We don’t like to discuss our vulnerabilities and our counters to the vulnerabilities in the open public.”

However, after the NBC report, Army leaders felt they needed to counter any doubts in the minds of servicemembers and their families, Brown said. “Our soldiers and, more importantly, the families – the wives, the children, the parents – have to have confidence that our soldiers have the best equipment in the world,” he said.

Right now, the Army’s safety-of-use message mandates that all soldiers use Interceptor body armor, which has passed the same tests the Pinnacle armor failed, Brown said. The Army is interested in a more flexible armor, like the Pinnacle design, and if the company improves its product, it could be reconsidered, he said.

Brown stressed that the Army has more than one set of body armor for every soldier in the combat theater, and that he has all the money and support he needs to make improvements to force protection. Also, the Army is constantly working to develop new technologies that will deliver better protection.

“This is not just a matter of debate for us; this is personal,” he said, noting that many of his staff members have relatives or friends who have served or are serving in Iraq or Afghanistan.
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Old 05-22-2007, 10:49   #24
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In response, Murray Neal, president of Pinnacle Armor which produces Dragon Skin, suggested that the Army lied about some of the testing, and he questioned why the Army was counting shots that "were fired into the non-rifle defeating areas."
If that is what the REQUIREMENTS OF THE STATEMENT OF WORK FOR THE TEST asked for, then the test FAILED.

Plain and simple. First Article Acceptance Testing requirements are stringent for a reason. Development testing is stringent for a reason. If the manufacturer cannot provide a sample size of product that perfectly meets requirements, then how will they provide hundreds of thousands of vests that come even close to perfection (or whatever the technical data package requirements for production items are).

When a contractor fails testing, the only reason they can come up with is always the government was unfair. Boo hoo.
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Old 05-22-2007, 10:53   #25
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I saw one or two rounds of the 48 fired that were anywhere near an edge in all of the X-rayed impacts, and they were both solidly on disks. They were on the M-01 vest which was motor oil contaminated and XL-02 vest which was contaminated with diesel as depicted in the briefing slides and the last attached pic in my opening post.

I am with you. If I can't get 30 good vests out to compete for a multi-billion dollar contract, what happens when I have to make 10,000 per month? The Army cannot destructively test all of the vests issued, or even a large number at that cost. A lot of soldiers, IMHO, will get defective gear.

Anyone here who has actually worn armor want to comment on how welcome an extra 20 pounds would be?

Kevin, what model of DS do you have and what threat level? PM me if you prefer. First NIJ certification of DS was 20 Dec 06 for the SOV2000. Anything prior to that is uncertified, including older vests marked as NIJ certified. That is a Level 3 vest rated for impacts up to 7.62x51mm M-80 ball. No AP. IMHO, the only way to know if the one you have is safe is to shoot it. And then you need a new one. To my knowledge, all issued lots of SAPI and ESAPI are certified. Good luck.

TR
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Old 05-22-2007, 11:03   #26
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The following is from the Pinnacle website:

Quote:
Both types of armor were conditioned for 12 hours at 170 degrees F, then moved to ambient air for approximately 90 min prior to being shot.
What exactly does this test prove? Shouldn't the armor be tested exactly as it is likely to be used? If for instance the armor was tested at 170 degrees while laying flat (and gravity can't act to degrade the structural integrity of the armor) and then allowed to cool enough for the adhesive to re-set what does it prove? Seems to me that the more appropriate test is if the armor is heated upright and then shot immediately before cooling off. Even a unsophisticated civilian like me is smart enough to realize that these vests will be exposed to extreme temperature conditions without any "cooling off" period before it has to perform. Who cares if it works after being left at room temperature for an hour and a half to cool, if it won't work while still hot or cold.

I must be stuck on stupid.
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Old 05-22-2007, 11:23   #27
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I'm confused. I admit I haven't read all the links, and I'm definitely NOT up to speed on this subject.

Quote:
In response, Murray Neal, president of Pinnacle Armor which produces Dragon Skin, suggested that the Army lied about some of the testing, and he questioned why the Army was counting shots that "were fired into the non-rifle defeating areas."
Why would there be places on the armor that doesn't protect against rifle fire? Isn't that the point of the stuff?

It seems to me, as the president, admitting there are places on the armor that don't stop the bullets is akin to admitting this equipment isn't designed to do it's job, regardless of whether it passes a test or not.

LL
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Old 05-22-2007, 11:33   #28
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Perception and minconception

I see most of the controversy coming from a few perceptions that might be misconceptions now that I have looked at a lot of the information available, so that is why I think I can talk about the public perception and about some of the facts made avaible to the public.
1. Most of the critics of the army cite a conflict of interest because Karl Masters is a program manager for the Interceptor and asked to test the "competition" dragon skin. I was recently told that Mr. Masters is employed by the army as a civilian contractor and this source suggested that if another armor was chosen by the army then Mr. Masters would then become the program manager for the "new" armor. If this is true and publicised I think this fact would decrease the negative perception that surrounds this issue.
2. That Dragon Skin failed because of heat. Murray Neal submitted a rebuttle at sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202007%2edb&command=v iewone&id=22 (edit by Team Sergeant, do not "hotlink" this website to that internet tabloid) now basically he says that the discs slipped in the test causing a catastophic failure because of an anomoly in the manufactureing. I.E. a subcontractor failed to place one strip of adhevise causing a row of discs to slip and the vest to fail. Now I thought about this and wouldn't every disc have slipped if the adhesive had been compromised with the heat/ageing conditioning? I am ready to believe this since it was just one strip of discs and he says that the subcontractor has changed the process and added a quality assurance check for this anomoly and pinnacle has added another layer of quality assurance that this failure might not be due to the concept or the normaly final product. People percieve this as not the biggest deal in the light that IBA has had recalls due to problems in quality control.
3. I called pinnacle on monday and the military sales rep told me that the sov 3000 front and back frull torso wrap weighs 36 pounds the website says that each torso wrap covers 80 percent more than a 10x12 plate. This is the real issue I think for the DS. I have read posts from people who say that the IBA is too heavy and causes non combat related injury from over heating dehydration back problems and mobility hindurace, so if that is true I can totally understand saying that 36 pounds is too much when 27 pounds is too much.
4. Continueing on the last point if the system is just too heavy I think most people can take that. Problems have arisen from now 4 publically available tests and another 4 tests done by pinnacle that show the dragon skin stopping a lot of lead. Now of course these tests are not the same as what Karl Masters did but the perception is something is wrong when there is video of the vest stopping hundreds of rounds no disc slipping on a curved gel dummy and then the army tests it catastophic failures arise. I don't think anyone is lieing it i just people often believe it when they see it and they have not seen DS fail.
5. I liked The Reapers report but found that the heat issue being explained as really a sub contractor manufactuer error and a lack on adhesive strip and not an adhesive being destroyed by heat.. Like in that evolutionarmor site, it is not signed and that is strange but I also wonder how he knows it was an error is the DS being not ready for 160 degree temps. as opposed to an adhesive strip being left off. The 160 degrees temp test has been suggested to be a hyper aging test trying to test the durability over longer less extreme heat by giving short duration extreme heat exposure. I also find it strange that he would say the issue was known to him in that that means he manufactured sold and then sold the patent to a piece of gear he knew was not able to last in certain conditions. If he is the creator and seller of DS's technology why didn't he solve the heat issue if there was one before? Not signing the page and not talking about why he let a known issue go for 5 years and then he admits he taught Neal how to make the armor why he would teach someone else how to make faulty gear. I still want to know if it was a heat issue or a missing adhesive strip. I repeat though if it was a heat issue why didn't every vest tested and 10-30 were tested, right?, turn into a pile kevlar and discs?
6. Also I think the perception that Neal asks questions about the edge tests, that shots were placed .5 inch off the edge and the edge test requires a shot .75 to 1.25 inch off edge raises concern. That shots were placed in kevlar areas that didn't have ceramic discs and called failures if true would be a problem the accusation raises concern but they could just be accusations. Most people know that even IBA has "gaps" in the rifle protection so they are preconditioned to the idea that a vest can be shown to have a failure just by aiming an inch to the side of the plate or disc or whatever.

I hope and think these issues can be addressed. Reaper brought up a lot of good questions also. I realize that some of the things we would like to know are said to be classified or sensitive because of operational security.

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Old 05-22-2007, 11:52   #29
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txzen:

Please introduce yourself in the proper place and fill in your profile before commenting again, as you were instructed in your confirmation email.

Given the thoughtful nature of your response, I will deviate from our norm here and will reply to your comments.

1. Correct. Karl posts here and can speak for himself, but I do not think he has a dog in this fight beyond the desire to get the soldiers the best, most reliable armor possible.

2. I do not buy Murray's explanation as to a single row slipping. Look at the X-rays. Over 50% of the tiles appear to have delaminated and fell to the bottom of the vest under fire. I think that the adhesive was a known problem, since Allan Bain, the inventor of DS, knew about it as well. IIRC, he has just come off of his non-compete agreement after selling the company to Murray Neal, and is looking to manufacture his own flexible armor. It occurs to me that Pinnacle's testing methodology is flawed, since as noted, the vest may not have the opportunity to cool before being shot. Temps in vehicles exposed to the sun in Iraq regularly exceed 150 degrees, and the armor may be shot at that temperature, or higher.

3. I do not believe that 36 pounds is for the XL size SOV 3000 Level 4 armor with 743 sq. in. of coverage, more or less equivalent to the IBA Large size. I suspect that they just quoted you a Small or Medium size weight to keep the total down. The Army brought the XL size SOV 3000 Level 4 DS to the press conference and put it on a scale. The media were allowed to weigh it as well. It weighed 47.5 pounds, as the Army claims. The Large IBA, with ESAPI and ESBI side plates provide 720 sq. in. of Level 4 coverage, almost all the way to the edge. If the DS Level 4 coverage does not extend all the way to the edge, how many sq. in. does it actually protect?

4. The weight is an issue, as the current load of an infantryman in Iraq is over 100 pounds. Not only is it hard to hump the weight, it keeps you from being tactically alert, and it adds to the wear and tear on your body over the years. I have no doubt that the ESAPI will take a lot of Level 3 and below threats as well. Not the point.

5. See 2 above.

6. Look at the pics in the Army PM brief. Examine the X-Rays in the 13 complete penetrations. How many of those appear to have been close to the edge?

I am not a ballistics expert, or an armor expert. I am just a broken down, former trigger puller. If I can figure this out, why can't everybody?

Gratifying to see that someone is actually reading and thinking. Good comments, thanks.

TR
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Old 05-22-2007, 12:02   #30
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I am with you. If I can't get 30 good vests out to compete for a multi-billion dollar contract, what happens when I have to make 10,000 per month? The Army cannot destructively test all of the vests issued, or even a large number at that cost. A lot of soldiers, IMHO, will get defective gear.
Exactly.

One can test a small sample size enough times that out of 100, one set will eventually pass. Then that single test will be held up as an example of how 'it works' to hoodwink people without relevant facts. When product comes rolling off the line and hits the field, eventually resulting in defects. it is the military that has to pick up the tab, spending time, money, and effort of troops returing the material back (doing malfunction investigations, segregating lots, repackaging, etc.)

It all leads to one thing - troops losing resources they need to fight (making their job harder and more dangerous than it already is).
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