MG 34 Question - Page 2

**The Reaper** · 10-02-2006, 17:22

That is how an open bolt weapon fires, when the bolt is released.

Sounds like the student pulled the bolt partially to the rear, not far enough to engage the sear and lock the bolt before releasing it.

If your buddy did not clear all weapons he brought before allowing the untrained students to play with them, I would hold him responsible for the accident. He did accomplish his teaching point about people handling unfamiliar weapons though.

Course, that is just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Smokin Joe · 10-02-2006, 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

That is how an open bolt weapon fires, when the bolt is released.

Sounds like the student pulled the bolt partially to the rear, not far enough to engage the sear and lock the bolt before releasing it.

If your buddy did not clear all weapons he brought before allowing the untrained students to play with them, I would hold him responsible for the accident. He did accomplish his teaching point about people handling unfamiliar weapons though.

Course, that is just my .02, YMMV.

TR

--LOL

My buddy was another student who didn't bring any of the weapons. He was standing there waiting to finger the MG 34 when this happened.

Thanks TR.

**Ambush Master** · 10-02-2006, 19:00

Having been involved in and knowing about a few other incidents, EVERY time you mix LEOs with "Open Bolt Weapons" something is going to head South!!! Most people do not understand that operating system and in, what they think, making the weapon safe, they lower the bolt and an AD/ND occurs!! The owner of the weapon/operator of the school are in real trouble!!!

mugwump · 10-02-2006, 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

The MG 34 sounds like it may have been rechambered to .308 because the bolt closed on the round.

Has the .308 case been recovered? Because it's much more likely that it was a 7.92mm round. The 7.62x51 conversions are very rare, finnicky and expensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

...The student then puts the weapon back on the table (on its bipod) pulls the bolt to the rear and opens the breach. The bolt automatically closed on the .308 round and slam fired....

I guess the big question is when the bolt is pulled to the rear and the breach is opened is the bolt Supposed to slam shut?

No, it does not normally move forward when the cover is raised.

If the weapon was cocked, opening the feed cover wouldn't allow the bolt to move forward. But if, as TR says, the sear wasn't engaged the bolt could hang up (excess grease or Schmutz?) and then be released when the cover was raised. The gun would then fire.

It is very unwise to open the MG 34 feed cover unless you are certain the gun is cocked. When I was taught to fire it, the stoppage drill called for cocking the gun, making it safe and then opening the feed cover. If the weapon couldn't be made safe (which means it couldn't be cocked) then the cocking handle was to be held to the rear when the cover was raised.

It sounds like this happened exactly as you described -- no trigger pull was necessary. The only thing I'm sceptical about is the 7.62 round. Occam's Razor says it was a 7.92 left in the breech.

**The Reaper** · 10-02-2006, 20:07

I would caution against opening the feed tray cover if the gun is hot.

One of my guys lost an eye with an M-60 when he did as you described. The gun broke an extractor during sustained fire, and when he opened the cover, the stuck round cooked off and the case fragged him in the face.

TR

x SF med · 10-03-2006, 06:51

When I was in 18B school (back in the dark ages, when we actually fired the MG34) I remembere we did hundreds of stoppage drills on the thing, just because it was open bolt.

In the case cited above - idiocy ruled completely - WTF was an uncleared weapon doing in a 'safe' area? Why wasn't the instructor/owner of the weapon with a weapon new to the students during initial orientation to the system? Why was the idiot trying to force the wrong ammo into the chamber?
Culpability runs to the instructor first and the student 2nd - run a clearing drill immediately upon getting to a weapon, even if 30 people have handled it prior to your turn. Bullet launchers can be tempramental, and the operator has to be ready for any eventuality - cook off, misfire,stuck round - anything....

edited for spelling.

mugwump · 10-03-2006, 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I would caution against opening the feed tray cover if the gun is hot.

One of my guys lost an eye with an M-60 when he did as you described. The gun broke an extractor during sustained fire, and when he opened the cover, the stuck round cooked off and the case fragged him in the face.

TR

Man, I'm sorry to hear that. I'll pass it on to who ever ends up in BB4 (Backyard Bunker 4) with the MG 34.

Just kidding -- I haven't fired one of these in 25 years. I picked up a parts kit (sans receiver) for a song in the early 80's but that will never come of anything, obviously. The kit was "ruined" from the collector standpoint by being stamped with a Star of David by the Isaelis, who used it in 1948 and 1956. Ironic, eh?

**Team Sergeant** · 10-03-2006, 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by mugwump

No, it does not normally move forward when the cover is raised.

If the weapon was cocked, opening the feed cover wouldn't allow the bolt to move forward. But if, as TR says, the sear wasn't engaged the bolt could hang up (excess grease or Schmutz?) and then be released when the cover was raised. The gun would then fire.

It is very unwise to open the MG 34 feed cover unless you are certain the gun is cocked. When I was taught to fire it, the stoppage drill called for cocking the gun, making it safe and then opening the feed cover. If the weapon couldn't be made safe (which means it couldn't be cocked) then the cocking handle was to be held to the rear when the cover was raised.

It sounds like this happened exactly as you described -- no trigger pull was necessary. The only thing I'm sceptical about is the 7.62 round. Occam's Razor says it was a 7.92 left in the breech.

mugwump,

Your experience with machineguns comes from where?

Never open a feed tray cover on a machinegun without placing the weapon on safe. If you cannot place the weapon on safe then you better grab the charging handle.

Usually I grab the charging handle first to ensure that even if the bolt is not engaged that it will not go forward.

It sounds as if the last time the weapon was fired it jammed. The shooter might have thought it was out of ammo and left it.

Student opened the feed tray and BOOM, it did not slam fire, it fired because the sear was not engaged and the bolt was being held by the force of the feed tray and feed tray cover.

So Joe you original question, could it have slam fired, not how you might think but yes, it fired because it was loaded and simply lifting the feed tray would have caused a discharge.

That instructor needs a new line of work, hes dangerous.

TS

mugwump · 10-03-2006, 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

mugwump,

Your experience with machineguns comes from where?

<snip>

TS

TS, I think we were typing at the same time. The only machinegun I know anything about is the MG 34. A long time ago a neighbor, who had been an ME-109 pilot (my then-girlfriend's father), and two of his friends (a US Army engineer who'd been in the Bulge in '44 and a second German emigre who'd fought briefly as an infantryman MG 34 gunner in France in '44) invited me to a shoot in another state. The German infantryman taught me the MG 34 over three days. Short time, I know, but the guy was meticulous -- I can still remember about every word. Funny, we both shot a couple of bursts on the MG 42 for the first time while there. His unit had only second-line weapons and he was wounded and captured after 2 months on the line. I also learned how to make mess-kit bacon, onions and potatoes like they made on the German line.

The Germans used to march in my town's Independence Day parade with all the US WWII vets. All three have passed away now.

Sorry for straying from my lane.

**Team Sergeant** · 10-03-2006, 11:54

The facts are changing in the story.... now that its not a jammed casing but an actual 7.62 chambered barrel I'm wondering if the idiot instructor even know what weapon he's actually got a hold of......MG3 maybe?

I stand by the possibility this was caused by what I wrote above, a jammed weapon that fired upon opening the feed tray cover, the chamber may have been empty and the casing may have been on the face of the bolt, who knows.

That said, if you cannot place a machinegun on safe than you'd better grab the charging handle before you open the feed tray.

This sounds more and more like 99% fault of the firearms "instructor".

Team Sergeant

Smokin Joe · 10-03-2006, 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

The facts are changing in the story.... now that its not a jammed casing but an actual 7.62 chambered barrel I'm wondering if the idiot instructor even know what weapon he's actually got a hold of......MG3 maybe?

I stand by the possibility this was caused by what I wrote above, a jammed weapon that fired upon opening the feed tray cover, the chamber may have been empty and the casing may have been on the face of the bolt, who knows.

That said, if you cannot place a machinegun on safe than you'd better grab the charging handle before you open the feed tray.

This sounds more and more like 99% fault of the firearms "instructor".

Team Sergeant

I'd say about 100% fault of the firearms Instructor for bringing a hot MG into a safe area where you are giving inital weapons familirzation to a bunch of guys who don't know a damn thing about the weapon.

7624U · 10-03-2006, 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

If a .308 round is placed inside the chamber of an MG 34 (chambered for 8mm) can or will the gun be capable of slam firing if the bolt is racked?

Or

Does the trigger have to be pulled in order for this scenario to occur?

Thank you for your time,

SJ

They all are capable of a AD if the bolt roller slips out of the feed track, I agree with TS on the jam therory.
this sounds to me what happened, someone dident fully clear or do a function check after a jam they just cleared the links with a open feedtray then cracked the bolt alittle to check the boltface and dident clear the round out of the chamber.
Then closed the feed tray cover with the bolt not alinged with the feed track.
SAFTY dident clear the weapons for display,thats a NO NO, student's not knowing how far the bolt should charge to the rear to engadge the sear, rejamed the weapon, bolt to the rear hung on the feed tray, some other student opens feedtray cover...
BOOM...

Rudyak · 10-09-2006, 14:15

The MG34 fires from an "open Bolt" The trigger would need to be pulled for the weapon to fire.

The MG34 is selective fire. The trigger has a toggle action to it. The upper half of the trigger is for semi-automatic fire, and the lower half is for full automatic fire.

It still might not fire as a '308 round is 51 mm in length and the 7.92 round is 58mm in length. If the 308 is pushed all the way into the chamber, I seriously doubt that the firing pin would be able to reach the primer!!

kgoerz · 10-09-2006, 17:05

Quote:

I'd say about 100% fault of the firearms Instructor for bringing a hot MG into a safe area where you are giving inital weapons familirzation to a bunch of guys who don't know a damn thing about the weapon.

I agree 100% with your 100%
Since joining the contract world I have been witness to some of the most unprofessional and incompetent Instructors one could imagine. I know there is a thread on this just some of my 02 here. Just because I am SF do's not influence my opinion that former Active Duty SF makes the best Instructors. Many contractors are starting to realize this. We had a bad name in my program for a few years because of a few Reserve or NG bad apples. Last time I passed Thru the Corporate HQ for my out brief the head honcho made the comment that you ex SF guys are our strongest employees. It brought a smile to my face.

**The Reaper** · 10-09-2006, 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudyak

The MG34 fires from an "open Bolt" The trigger would need to be pulled for the weapon to fire.

The MG34 is selective fire. The trigger has a toggle action to it. The upper half of the trigger is for semi-automatic fire, and the lower half is for full automatic fire.

It still might not fire as a '308 round is 51 mm in length and the 7.92 round is 58mm in length. If the 308 is pushed all the way into the chamber, I seriously doubt that the firing pin would be able to reach the primer!!

Go back and do some reading earlier in this thread.

The 7.62x51 has a larger case body than the 7.92 and should not fully chamber in the MG34. In the MG3, no worries.

TR