MG 34 Question

Smokin Joe · 09-29-2006, 16:46

If a .308 round is placed inside the chamber of an MG 34 (chambered for 8mm) can or will the gun be capable of slam firing if the bolt is racked?

Or

Does the trigger have to be pulled in order for this scenario to occur?

Thank you for your time,

SJ

**Team Sergeant** · 09-29-2006, 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

If a .308 round is placed inside the chamber of an MG 34 (chambered for 8mm) can or will the gun be capable of slam firing if the bolt is racked?

Or

Does the trigger have to be pulled in order for this scenario to occur?

Thank you for your time,

SJ

Slam fire, I doubt it. Most military weapons (especially well designed German machine guns such as this one) do not have slam fire problems. I'd say someones finger was on the trigger if there was a ND.....

MG-34 is a recoil-operated, selective fire weapon. It uses short recoiling barrel with muzzle recoil booster which also serves as a flash hider. Barrel locking is achieved by the rotating bolt head, with interrupted threads locking lugs, that lock into the barrel extension. Bolt head has a set of rollers, located just behind the lugs. These rollers are used to rotate bolt heads to lock and unlock, when riding inside the curved grooves, cut on the inner walls of the receiver. Rollers also act as a bolt accelerator, when bolt unlocks, due to interoperation with the barrel extension. Tubular receiver is linked to the tubular barrel sleeve by the swinging stud, set at the right side of the receiver, so receiver can be turned up and to the right relatively tho the barrel sleeve, thus exposing the barrel rear end. When receiver is opened, barrel can be simply withdrawn from its sleeve to the back, but when barrel is hot, this requires some sort of the heat protection, so MG-34 operator had to use asbestos glove which was a standard acessory to the gun. MG-34 usually was issued with belt feed, which was operated by the stud on the top of the bolt body. Belt feed could be easily set up to take the belt from the left or from the right side of the gun. With special replacement feed cover, a double-drum, saddle-type 75 rounds magazines can be used. MG-34 was a selective fire weapon, with mode of fire being controlled by dual trigger. A pull on the upper part of the trigger produced single shots, while a pull on the lower part produced full auto bursts.

Gene Econ · 09-29-2006, 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

If a .308 round is placed inside the chamber of an MG 34 (chambered for 8mm) can or will the gun be capable of slam firing if the bolt is racked? Or Does the trigger have to be pulled in order for this scenario to occur? Thank you for your time, SJ

Joe:

Who are you about to smoke and on what web site? He, he, he. I gotta see this one.

How about looking up each cartridge for their dimensions while loaded with what ever service load is being discussed. Taking a look in the Sierra Reloading Manual, it appears that the 7.62 brass will fit into the "8" X 57 Mauser chamber. However, the overall length of the .308 is shorter than that of the 8 X 57 by about .44 inches.

What this probably means is that the 7.62 cartridge will slide into the 8 X 57 chamber but will fall so far into the chamber that the firing pin probably won't strike the primer on the 7.62 cartridge.

Give me a overall cartridge length on both of the rounds this fellow is using and we will see. Off the bat, .44 inches is a huge amount of difference in terms of overall cartridge lengths.

Now, I have fireformed brass that was seriously short in headspace. This was possible because I seated the bullet out so far that it engaged the lands of the rifling and forced the rim into the bolt face.

Slam firing is a matter that has nothing do do with headspace. Any weapon that uses an inertial firing pin can slam fire. It is a fault of the firing pin, firing pin hole, and or worn out trigger parts.

Gene

mugwump · 09-29-2006, 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

...What this probably means is that the 7.62 cartridge will slide into the 8 X 57 chamber but will fall so far into the chamber that the firing pin probably won't strike the primer on the 7.62 cartridge...

Gene

I just tried it, and a 7.62 cartridge is fatter. It jams in the MG-34 chamber and protrudes about 1.25 inches from flush.

Smokin Joe · 09-29-2006, 23:09

I'm not gonna smoke anyone.

An individual who works for my agency went to "A firearms Instructor School." (and I ain't saying where in an open forum). When an instructor brought in an MG 34.

According to my guy: A student was dicking with the weapon, pulled the bolt to the rear, let it go, when the chamber shut, it fired. The round missed my guys head by a few inches he now suffers some permanint hearing loss in one ear.

A lawsuit is in the works and the attorneys are saying that the student has as much culpability as the instructor running the course (and who the weapon belonged to).

My guy asked me if I would ask around to see if anyone who is familiar with the MG 34 knows if the above scenario is possible or if the guy had to pull the trigger.

From Mugwumps response it sounds like something else is up.

Thanks for the responses Gentlemen, keep'em coming.

**Team Sergeant** · 09-30-2006, 09:23

There is a simple way to find out if it did indeed "slam" fire, set it up again, 'cept this time move the "firearms" instructor out of the way.

If it did it once it will do it again.

**The Reaper** · 09-30-2006, 09:32

Let the ATFE do it.

They will spend days trying to get a semi- weapon to give them a double so that they can charge the owner.

Frankly, the story sounds implausible.

Was the expended brass and the bullet recovered? That would be material evidence that would normally be required to determine what happened.

Or sue the Nazis who made the 34, if he can find them.

TR

mugwump · 09-30-2006, 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

From Mugwumps response it sounds like something else is up.

Yikes. Given the scenario, I checked again. There's no way a 7.62 x 51 will fit into the 8mm chamber of an MG 34. Now I have heard of these guns being re-barrelled for .308. Is that a possibility?

I may be missing something here, but how can a properly-functioning open bolt weapon fire when the charging handle is racked? Maybe pulled back but not enough to engage the sear? Are they saying the gun was defective as well? If the round fired was truly a .308 it sounds like the gun was re-barrelled (otherwise the case would have split, no?) and the trigger was pulled. Someone casually racking the action could hold the pistol grip in the left hand while pulling on the charging handle with the right. I don't know what would happen if the trigger was depressed when the handle was released.

Gene Econ · 09-30-2006, 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by mugwump

I just tried it, and a 7.62 cartridge is fatter. It jams in the MG-34 chamber and protrudes about 1.25 inches from flush.

You are absolutely correct. I was looking at the specs for the rim and web. The 8mm X 57 is .431" where the case body meets the shoulder. The .308 is .454" at the same location. The Mauser is more tapered. No wonder the .308 round stuck.

I have no clue what happened.

Gene

x SF med · 09-30-2006, 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

You are absolutely correct. I was looking at the specs for the rim and web. The 8mm X 57 is .431" where the case body meets the shoulder. The .308 is .454" at the same location. The Mauser is more tapered. No wonder the .308 round stuck.

I have no clue what happened.

Gene

Operator headspace and timing malfunction? OOPS, wrong weapon.

kgoerz · 10-01-2006, 18:14

Quote:

According to my guy: A student was dicking with the weapon, pulled the bolt to the rear, let it go, when the chamber shut, it fired. The round missed my guys head by a few inches he now suffers some permanent hearing loss in one ear.

Have to add why was a Student in a Firearms school permitted to dick around with a loaded Weapon and have it pointed at someone. Sounds like the Instructor or whoever was in charge when this happened is at fault here to. Did this happen in a classroom or on a Range? Would like to hear the outcome of the lawsuit if it go's thru.

Smokin Joe · 10-02-2006, 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgoerz

Have to add why was a Student in a Firearms school permitted to dick around with a loaded Weapon and have it pointed at someone. Sounds like the Instructor or whoever was in charge when this happened is at fault here to. Did this happen in a classroom or on a Range? Would like to hear the outcome of the lawsuit if it go's thru.

The law suit is a go. The ND occured in a classroom on a range compound. The entire sight is considered an active range, with certain designated safe areas throughout the range. The classroom is considered a designated safe area.

*For these purposes a safe area means pistols stay in holsters and / or are cleared prior to entering the classroom. All long guns are unloaded and cleared (or atleast should be) prior to entering a safe area.*

The class was a Firearms Instructor school. The lead instructor owned the MG 34. Failed to check it prior to bringing it into the classroom.

The lead instructors lawyer is claiming "some" clupability but they are also saying that some of the clupability rests on the student who was dicking with the weapon.

Oh and I failed to mention this BIG part. The reason why the MG 34 was there was because various weapons were brought into teach the students how to check and make safe various weapons.

**Team Sergeant** · 10-02-2006, 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

The law suit is a go. The ND occured in a classroom on a range compound. The entire sight is considered an active range, with certain designated safe areas throughout the range. The classroom is considered a designated safe area.

*For these purposes a safe area means pistols stay in holsters and / or are cleared prior to entering the classroom. All long guns are unloaded and cleared (or atleast should be) prior to entering a safe area.*

The class was a Firearms Instructor school. The lead instructor owned the MG 34. Failed to check it prior to bringing it into the classroom.

The lead instructors lawyer is claiming "some" clupability but they are also saying that some of the clupability rests on the student who was dicking with the weapon.

Oh and I failed to mention this BIG part. The reason why the MG 34 was there was because various weapons were brought into teach the students how to check and make safe various weapons.

Going to be an open and shut lawsuit IMO.

Strike One, Instructor fails to check weapons and make them safe prior to allowing anyone else to handle them.

Strike Two, Instructor brings a loaded, instructional weapon into the classroom "safe area".

Strike Three, Instructor relinquishes control of a dangerous weapons system to students not yet trained to handle them.

Where's my thread concerning choosing a "competent" firearms instructor? This was not that DEA weapons safety instructor teaching weapons safety again was it?

TS

**The Reaper** · 10-02-2006, 08:19

Joe:

Where did the ammo come from?

TR

Smokin Joe · 10-02-2006, 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Joe:

Where did the ammo come from?

TR

-I don't know Sir.

Well I got some better info today.

The MG 34 sounds like it may have been rechambered to .308 because the bolt closed on the round.

Also for clarification the cycle of events went down like this:

This was a Firearms Instructor School, all students are (or were at the time) Police officers who have to have atleast 2 years on the road and have been selected by there departments to be instructors in this field.

- Some time prior to the class while the MG 34 was greased up for storage. Someone (no idea who) had placed a live .308 round in the chamber and manually closed the bolt on the weapon. Probably because they couldn't get the round out of the chamber.

- The lead instructor failed to check the weapon prior to brining it into the classroom.

-The classroom excersise had approximately 15-20 different weapons on the table. The weapons were displayed, the students were invited up to the table as a weapons clearing familariztion (sp?) excersice.

- A student picks up the MG 34 looks at the outside of the weapon and rolls the weapon back and forth in his hands. The student then puts the weapon back on the table (on its bipod) pulls the bolt to the rear and opens the breach. The bolt automatically closed on the .308 round and slam fired. Giving my buddy powder burns on his left arm and 13 % hearing lose out of his left ear.

- The student who was handeling the weapon when it fired swears he did not touch the trigger and others confirm that they didn't see his hand near the trigger.

I guess the big question is when the bolt is pulled to the rear and the breach is opened is the bolt Supposed to slam shut?

Thanks again for your time and attention.

Joe