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Old 04-06-2014, 14:52   #16
Dusty
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The camel is a Bactrian and the first hump is in the tent.

Pat
Point conceded.

C'mon, November...
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Old 04-06-2014, 16:30   #17
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Point conceded.

C'mon, November...
Ah, the eternal optimist.

TR
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Old 04-06-2014, 17:14   #18
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It's just a mincing of words [among] eggheads.
IMO, if this statement accurately reflects your approach to historiography then you significantly degrade the legitimacy of your own use of this nation's past to bolster your political views and policy preferences.
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I pledge to "one Nation, under God, indivisible, and with liberty and justice for all."
Are you aware that the Pledge of Allegiance was penned by a socialist <<LINK>>?
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Old 04-06-2014, 17:33   #19
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Ah, the eternal optimist.

TR
You either keep fighting or curl up in the fetal and call a waahmbulance.
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Old 04-06-2014, 17:35   #20
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IMO, if this statement accurately reflects your approach to historiography then you significantly degrade the legitimacy of your own use of this nation's past to bolster your political views and policy preferences.Are you aware that the Pledge of Allegiance was penned by a socialist <<LINK>>?

So? Pretty lame, Sig.
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Old 04-06-2014, 17:54   #21
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So? Pretty lame, Sig.
IMO, intellectual consistency matters.

If one is going to hector socialism and socialists it is incumbent upon one not to accept uncritically the POVs and practices one believes are ruining America.

My $0.02.
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Old 04-06-2014, 19:46   #22
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I too have pledged allegiance to “One nation under God for many years and must admit as to having had no idea as to the origins of the pledge. Other than Sig, who here was aware of its origin?

I found Sigs link to have been an interesting read especially the following quote, “At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the Flag the military salute—right hand lifted, palm downward, to a line with the forehead and close to it… At the words, ‘to my Flag,’ the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, towards the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side.” After the rise of Nazism, this form of salute was thought to be in poor taste, to say the least, and replaced with today’s hand-on-heart gesture.”

The writer is certainly entitled to his take on the pledge, and he goes on to state “But not every tradition deserves defending. Though no one can be legally compelled to salute the flag, encouraging the ritual smacks of promoting a quasi-religious genuflection to the state. That’s not surprising, given that the Pledge was designed by an avowed socialist to encourage greater regimentation of society.”

I do not recall the first time I recited the pledge it was more than likely sometime in the first or second grade more than 50 years ago. However I am going to surmise that those nice young ladies who were my teachers back then were not guilty of encouraging the regimentation of society by having us kiddies recite the pledge.

So Sig is your question can one be opposed to socialism yet embrace a pledge written by a Christian socialist? I guess I have been doing it for years, I know why I "Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America."
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Old 04-06-2014, 21:33   #23
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To Richard: [entire post]. Interesting points. And as to the article you referenced w/regard to Justice Rehnquist: JUSTICE WILLIAM H. REHNQUIST'S ABUSE OF HISTORY
Gene Garman, Author of America's Real Religion January 26, 2001

I know something of the author of that article; and I'll say no more about him except that in that article his "colors" came out unequivocally.

With all due respect, sir, I'm afraid that I will just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 04-06-2014, 21:45   #24
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I and others have been fervently warning people of this for 7, 8 years, but it actually started when they took the Lord's Prayer out of the school.
Such a POV - one based upon an individual's or specific religious group's personally held religious views or the proverbial highway - is IMO exactly the reason Jefferson and Madison sought the inclusion of the concept of church/state separation in our nation's founding documents, and why the SCOTUS has upheld it for over two centuries.

Having never gone to a parochial school other than a parochial college, I was never required to recite any of the numerous versions of the "Lord's Prayer" in any school I ever attended; however, we did recite the 'Pledge of Allegience' and, in Texas, the "Texas Pledge." ( https://www.tsl.texas.gov/ref/abouttx/flagpledge.html )

Personally, I side with Jefferson and Madison and the SCOTUS on this issue.


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To Richard: [entire post]. Interesting points. And as to the article you referenced w/regard to Justice Rehnquist: JUSTICE WILLIAM H. REHNQUIST'S ABUSE OF HISTORY
Gene Garman, Author of America's Real Religion January 26, 2001

I know something of the author of that article; and I'll say no more about him except that in that article his "colors" came out unequivocally.

With all due respect, sir, I'm afraid that I will just have to agree to disagree.
He obviously had a "bone to pick" with Justice Rehnquist, but were his 'facts' wrong?

Richard
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Old 04-06-2014, 22:08   #25
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Quote Richard ["Were his facts wrong?]

I believe they were, yes. In Wallace v. Jaffree, Justice Rehnquist's dissent boiled down to this: "Thus, says Rehnquist, we can see indisputably that the spirit in which the Congress approved the Establishment Clause was one of open-minded toleration, not one of hostility towards religion."

And I agree with him. Between you, me and the four (virtual) walls, I do believe our Founding Fathers would recoil in horror to see the results of just what judicial activism and the loss of a moral and God-loving citizenry has wrought upon this Republic. Just my non-professional opinion, for what it's worth.
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Old 04-07-2014, 02:05   #26
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So Sig is your question can one be opposed to socialism yet embrace a pledge written by a Christian socialist? I guess I have been doing it for years, I know why I "Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America."
My question is: What does it say of one's intellectual consistency if one broadly and insistently lumps together Democrats, liberals, socialists, and communists, argues that they are godless and that they're destroying the values memorialized by a pledge written by a socialist to advance a socialist agenda?

(If the answer is "the meaning of the Pledge of Allegiance changed from its original intent over time," then why doesn't that same logic apply to other writings?)
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Old 04-07-2014, 02:16   #27
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My question is: What does it say of one's intellectual consistency if one broadly and insistently lumps together Democrats, liberals, socialists, and communists, argues that they are godless and that they're destroying the values memorialized by a pledge written by a socialist to advance a socialist agenda?
I'm glad you didn't include us "registered" independent (unaffiliated) voters.
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Old 04-08-2014, 00:10   #28
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. If one is going to hector socialism and socialists it is incumbent upon one not to accept uncritically the POVs and practices one believes are ruining America.

Are you smoking crack? The people running this country are nothing but socialists, the Obamessiah in particular, and his handlers. Critically thinking, socialism is one of the biggest lies of the twentieth century, and all it delivers is poverty, misery, and tyranny. Nothing good can come from rewarding failure and penalizing success....

As a student of history you should know this....
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Old 04-08-2014, 08:49   #29
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Are you smoking crack? The people running this country are nothing but socialists, the Obamessiah in particular, and his handlers. Critically thinking, socialism is one of the biggest lies of the twentieth century, and all it delivers is poverty, misery, and tyranny. Nothing good can come from rewarding failure and penalizing success....

As a student of history you should know this....
To the best of my knowledge Sigaba hasn't held public office in DC or Toronto.

I agree with your take on socialism, my read is someone as well versed in US history as Sig does too. I took his point to be a reminder the absence of critical thinking renders us all vulnerable to charlatans who know our respective buttons. For example a lot of good people believed in Herman Cain, or are willing to pay to hear a reformed "ex terrorist" speak.
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Old 04-08-2014, 08:50   #30
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Are you smoking crack? The people running this country are nothing but socialists, the Obamessiah in particular, and his handlers. Critically thinking, socialism is one of the biggest lies of the twentieth century, and all it delivers is poverty, misery, and tyranny. Nothing good can come from rewarding failure and penalizing success....

As a student of history you should know this....
Read the post again in the context of the previous posts.
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