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Old 04-16-2014, 19:19   #121
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Originally Posted by Sdiver View Post
Saw this today ....
Putting aside all the things other than the Back tax aspect if 'equal justice' were the intent Bundy would have had a lien filed filed against him as Sharpton has....or Sharton would have long ago had a army of heavily armed jack booted Federal thugs beating down his door as Bundy has.


Other than that....it appears Bundy has been a producer his entire life, whereas Rev. Al has been leech on society and pads his wallet by peddling racial strife.
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Old 04-16-2014, 20:31   #122
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Originally Posted by Broadsword2004 View Post
A lot of people agree that Bundy is legally in the wrong,
Is he really? His family has lived there for over a hundred and forty years. It became a state and they were citizens of that state and paid open range grazing fees to the state. Then the feds decide that they need grazing fees, too, and his family paid them. Then the feds decide that his herd is to too large and on and on and on until they drove all the other ranchers from the land. How was the armed federal response on the illegals and drug mules crossing the border? How would you like to have the feds charge you a fee for living where you live just because they say they can and have judges that will support them?

On Tuesdays my wife volunteers at a BLM facility. The BLM folks didn't show up yesterday. They seem like good guys. My guess is that they were too embarrassed to show.

I live on land surrounded by BLM land and if I don't support the Bundy family, who will support me when they come? It's pushback time!

Pat
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Last edited by PSM; 04-17-2014 at 00:44. Reason: Clarification
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Old 04-16-2014, 20:53   #123
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Originally Posted by Brush Okie View Post
Now lets say Bundy is 100% illegal. The govt can round up his cattle and remove them from the land with court order etc, but it seems a little bit of an overreaction bullying on the part of the govt. the way they went about it. Minimum use of force is the rule. Another case of using SWAT team because they have one not because they need one.
Hence the Lady Justice image or Scale shown at most older Court houses...it is SUPPOSED TO BE BALANCED! About as mentally balanced and of high moral character as the Reid's are.

The continual 'unbalanced' reaction by the gov't should give one pause for thought. One should also seek the truth behind such unbalance and remove those from office whom make choices for their selfish interests, and not for the country's best interest.

EDIT: I'm with PSM on this
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Old 04-16-2014, 20:54   #124
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Originally Posted by PSM View Post

I live on land surrounded by BLM land and if I don't support the Bundy family, who will support me when they come? It's pushback time!

Pat
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"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me."-Martin Niemöller
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Old 04-16-2014, 21:21   #125
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Originally Posted by Broadsword2004 View Post
A lot of people agree that Bundy is legally in the wrong
The 13 American Colonies rebelling against England were legally in the wrong.
Harboring fugitive slaves prior to the Civil War was legally in the wrong.

From whom do we derive our rights?
From whom does the Federal government receive its authority?

The Bundy fiasco is a topic.
It is not the issue.
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Old 04-16-2014, 23:32   #126
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Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen View Post
The 13 American Colonies rebelling against England were legally in the wrong.
Harboring fugitive slaves prior to the Civil War was legally in the wrong.

From whom do we derive our rights?
From whom does the Federal government receive its authority?

The Bundy fiasco is a topic.
It is not the issue.
great post!

Something tells me the civilians could be better armed than the "opposition." Heck....some folks in Montana are making deadly accurate semi-auto 300winmag...so accurate that 400m movers were a joke, the DTA, Horus, etc. The ingenuity, redneck engineer type makes this country super great IMHOO. Unless the fed brings AH64 type arsenal , you just never know what some 'ol regular joe brings to the Bundy Party

On the lighthearted side:
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Old 04-16-2014, 23:46   #127
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Looking at the images of all of those armed people milling around can you imagine what might have happened if someone on either side would have caused a negligent discharge?

Agree with some of the others here that this isn't over. I'm pretty sure that there are some higher ups in the ranks of the federal offices involved that don't like what happened there (them backing down). I wouldn't be surprised if they come back with a much superior force. A few Battalions of the Nevada National Guard or maybe even regular Army?

If Mr. Bundy chooses to go out in a blaze of glory will it incite more anti-government sentiment? A lot of people in this country are fed up with the Federal Government right now and I have a feeling we're going to see more incidents like this in the future.

Looking at the issue from both sides I can't take a strong stance on it.

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Old 04-17-2014, 00:13   #128
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Looking at the images of all of those armed people milling around can you imagine what might have happened if someone on either side would have had a negligent discharge?

Agree with some of the others here that this isn't over. There are higher ups in the ranks of the federal offices involved that that don't like what happened there (them backing down) I wouldn't be surprised if they come back with a much superior force. A few Battalions of the Nevada National Guard or maybe even regular Army?
Well it would be an extreme and blatant violation of the law if they deployed the U.S. Army. That would most definitely be the beginning of a Civil War. There is an interconnected web of well regulated Militias in the country, with branches in every state. They would call to arms, form their own regiments. Probably starting with the 1st Nevada and it would all go down hill from there. There's also the State Defense Force which only answers to the governor however given his inaction they would probably abandon their posts to join what I assume would be called the 1st Nevada.

If the politicians really want to go down that road then they seriously underestimate the people in this country.

And at that point every soldier would have to really search their soul and pick a side. The line between who the enemy is isn't always so clear, and I'm sure it'd be a tough decision for some. Some of your buddies might be on the other side and you'd have to ask yourself "Can I really shoot at this man, this brother I've spent the past 4 years training with and fighting with?" It would tear families and friends apart. I've got family and friends that lean left and this is something I've had to think about. If it came down to it could I really kill someone I love, that I grew up with, that helped raise me? These aren't fun questions but that's the reality.

I hope it doesn't come to it, but I know where I stand.

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Old 04-17-2014, 00:24   #129
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Originally Posted by Broadsword2004 View Post
Regular military can't be used for law enforcement purposes due to the Posse Comitatus Act, but I believe Posse Comitatus does not apply to National Guard, which can be used by a state for law enforcement purposes. Something like that though would be very bad in terms of the visuals though IMO. However this isn't a state issue, it's a federal issue (BLM), so I don't think they could use the National Guard, right?
True, although Presidents suspend that act whenever they want. During Katrina the 82nd Airborne Paratroopers were deployed to the ground in full kit. So shit happens.

But like I said in my above, they do that and they kill someone, the war starts.
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Old 04-17-2014, 00:33   #130
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Yes, I don't know how Posse Comitatus works with regards to something like that. If the president can suspend it whenever they want though, what is the point of it? Or is it where it can be suspended for special emergencies?
I believe there has to be an emergency session of congress. However when they did it during Katrina it was kept very very quiet. They could have done it already but we just haven't heard because who's going to publicize it?

Apparently the same was done during the Boston Marathon Bombing. I remember seeing up-armored humvees and MPs patrolling along with every other agency. Hell we even had ICE agents and Embassy Security (guess there were no illegals to go after or diplomats to protect.)

I can tell you one thing, when they had that "shelter in place" order. I said F that, this is my city and I'm going to live my life. What I will say is I was a whole lot more worried about getting shot by a cop or secret service agent than I was of someone blowing me up. You couldn't spit without hitting an LEO

As long as congress is involved in the process and Obama doesn't use an "executive" order than yeah, there's a time to do it, but by that same token, I have a feeling this administration will abuse that emergency exemption to harm us.

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Old 04-17-2014, 04:05   #131
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Quiet?

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Originally Posted by YM Cating View Post
I believe there has to be an emergency session of congress. However when they did it during Katrina it was kept very very quiet. They could have done it already but we just haven't heard because who's going to publicize it? ....
This story is from 09/21/2005

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=17253

"NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 21, 2005 – The Army's 82nd Airborne Division took to the water soon after it deployed to New Orleans to provide disaster relief assistance in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the unit's two-star general said here Sept. 20...."
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Old 04-17-2014, 05:50   #132
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The more than 3.2 million Americans living in bondage and the more than 424 thousand "free" Americans subject to kidnapping and enslavement ...

YMMV
Yes, my mileage does vary.

I wasn't referencing slavery at all. Thanks for bringing that up. Someone mentioned that it would be like "Bloody Kansas" if the shooting started. I said basically that no, that would be wrong because Bloody Kansas was over whether Kansas Territory would be a slave state or not. I said the Boston Massacre would be a more appropriate reference.

Unless you are trying to compare modern American Citizens being governed by an oppressive government to slaves of the Civil War era?

YMMV
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:38   #133
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Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen View Post
The 13 American Colonies rebelling against England were legally in the wrong.
Harboring fugitive slaves prior to the Civil War was legally in the wrong.

From whom do we derive our rights?
From whom does the Federal government receive its authority?

The Bundy fiasco is a topic.
It is not the issue.

“The principle for which we contend is bound to reassert it’s self, though it may be at another time and in another form.”
President Jefferson Davis, C.S.A.
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Old 04-17-2014, 08:49   #134
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Old 04-17-2014, 10:32   #135
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Originally Posted by Broadsword2004 View Post
A lot of people agree that Bundy is legally in the wrong, but do not agree at all with the federal government's heavy-handed militaristic tactics against him, as it isn't like he's a terrorist or anything. For example, liberal Kirsten Powers was making this point on O'Reilly tonight.
Maybe legally wrong? Here is the rest of the story.

http://benswann.com/exclusive-does-c...ing-to-court/#

Quote:
Among the questions Devlin asked of the BLM, “Is it possible that this guy (Cliven Bundy) has prescriptive rights?” The response from top officials at the BLM, “We are worried that he might and he might use that defense.”
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Of course, Bundy has not made the claim that he will not pay the fees, he simply says he will not pay those fees to the BLM because he doesn’t recognize federal authority over the land. Bundy has said that in the past, that he would pay fees to Clarke County, Nevada, though Clarke County has refused to accept them. The BLM has insisted that Bundy owes $1.1 million dollars in grazing fees for his trespass cattle.
Not in recognition of federal authority, as I see it, he does have a point.
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