WP grad killed at Costco in NV because he was carrying CCW

[uboat509]

Originally Posted by plato

Quite the opposite. Unplanned encounters are a primary reason for tazers, nightsticks, pepper spray, etc. A traffic stop is a "planned encounter" by an individual officer. And you don't "taze" somebody for running a stop sign.

You use it when the situation suddenly goes to hell and becomes a "tazer situation", something you weren't planning on doing when you asked for license, registration, and proof of insurance.

Are you saying that the first option an officer should use when confronted with what he believes is deadly force is less than lethal techniques? My understanding was that less than lethal options were designed to subdue individuals who were not a direct and immediate threat to the life of the officer or other person in other words where use of deadly force was not justified. Perhaps I was misinformed.

Perhaps my terminology is off. What I meant by unplanned encounter in this case is that the officers met the victim at a time and place not of their choosing and without the equipment that they stated that they were waiting on and without a plan in place as to how they were going to proceed with subduing someone that apparently as far as they knew was possibly high on something, agitated and armed.

Originally Posted by plato

And, he wasn't waiting for more officers. He was waiting for someone who outranked him, so that they would be the pinata hanging in front of the chief if things went south. That's conjecture, but conjecture with real life experience behind it.

That is what he stated and in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I will take it at face value.

[spherojon]

I’m sure Erik Scott was a nice guy and a good friend, and I am sorry for you loss. What struck me as odd was the toxicity report showing lethal amounts of morphine, Xanax, and a combination of other controlled substances.

The police in this situation are arriving on scene expecting a man high on a controlled substance with a firearm. For all the officers know the controlled substance would be PCP, characterized by staggering, unsteady gait, slurred speech, bloodshot eyes, slow reaction time, easily confused, and loss of balance.

LV PO-43-04 directs that " The TASER® may be used when a subject is displaying active, aggressive or aggravated aggressive resistance to an officer attempting to conduct legal law enforcement activities (see 6/002.00, Use of Force, for definitions).

In your defense, a Taser is effective on a subject high on PCP. But, my question goes out to LEO’s; would you pull a Taser out on a subject suspected to be on PCP with a firearm?

[Bad Tolz]

"Nope, I wasn't there.
Yep, he's a sack of shit " Plato

Just curious Plato, are you or have you ever been a LEO in a deadly force situation? If so, are you familiar with Dr. Bill Lewinski (Force Science), who has probably researched and documented more LEO violent encounters than anyone else?

The "sack of shit" comment is not worthy, considering you are armchairing this incident, partner.

Bad Tolz

[AngelsSix]

Originally Posted by spherojon

I’m sure Erik Scott was a nice guy and a good friend, and I am sorry for you loss. What struck me as odd was the toxicity report showing lethal amounts of morphine, Xanax, and a combination of other controlled substances.

The police in this situation are arriving on scene expecting a man high on a controlled substance with a firearm. For all the officers know the controlled substance would be PCP, characterized by staggering, unsteady gait, slurred speech, bloodshot eyes, slow reaction time, easily confused, and loss of balance.



In your defense, a Taser is effective on a subject high on PCP. But, my question goes out to LEO’s; would you pull a Taser out on a subject suspected to be on PCP with a firearm?

Read the dozens of stories of officers that have shot PCP users multiple times and they have kept on coming to understand the answer to your question. The difference is involuntary vs. voluntary.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by spherojon

But, my question goes out to LEO’s; would you pull a Taser out on a subject suspected to be on PCP with a firearm?

No.

[plato]

Originally Posted by busa

I have, and I can tell you that I never heard a shotgun blast less than three feet away from me and I can also say that the three officers involved all saw things differently and none of us were liars.

I understand the confusion when rounds are flying, and time becomes either terrifyingly fast or amazingly slow. I wasn't really addressing that portion of "the case".

I was simply comparing his comments concerning "man with a gun" and non-lethal force.

1. We don't do that.
2. We were preparing to do that.

One of those two is a lie.

[plato]

Originally Posted by uboat509

Are you saying that the first option an officer should use when confronted with what he believes is deadly force is less than lethal techniques?

Perhaps my terminology is off. What I meant by unplanned encounter in this case is that the officers met the victim at a time and place not of their choosing and without the equipment that they stated that they were waiting on and without a plan in place as to how they were going to proceed with subduing someone that apparently as far as they knew was possibly high on something, agitated and armed.

That is what he stated and in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I will take it at face value.

Re: first option.....It would be my first choice. A shot to other than the head will possibly to incapacitate a person sooner or later. I imagine many here with a purple heart can attest to that. A taser incapacitates faster.

Re: Planned encounter: I can't think of what the other equipment might be, but then on "my force", of the early 80' we had fewer options. Beanbags and rubber bullets come to mind and both of those are slower

Re: Absence of evidence.... That was was my attempt at LEO/FOG humor. Didn't work .

[plato]

Originally Posted by Bad Tolz

"Nope, I wasn't there.
Yep, he's a sack of shit " Plato

Just curious Plato, are you or have you ever been a LEO in a deadly force situation? If so, are you familiar with Dr. Bill Lewinski (Force Science), who has probably researched and documented more LEO violent encounters than anyone else?

The "sack of shit" comment is not worthy, considering you are armchairing this incident, partner.

Bad Tolz

"deadly force siituation" I hate that term.

I'll let you apply it according to your definition. Seems there are several.

I have been a LEO. I have never "applied" deadly force as a LEO.

As a LEO, I have chased, chanced upon, and intentionally encountered people with handguns, knives and shotguns who had hands on and were prepared to use them only in self-defense, to settle a matter with someone, who had a history that included felonies, and who were trying to exit the scene from a felony.

I have been present as a LEO when shots were fired, but as part of an outer perimeter/ to keep the civilians away.

Depending on the individual, all, or one of those situations above could be what they call "deadly force situation".

OK, consider the "sack of shit" withdrawn.

I'll go with "not entirely truthful".

[Combat Diver]

With multiple officers at the enterance waiting for Scott to come out, one should have had a taser out, as it seems they all had their pistols out. I could understand Scott being shot when he made movement to surrender his pistol. What I can not stand for is the additional 3 rds to the back when he was down and lack of first aid.

CD

[plato]

The full inquest session was broadcast live yesterday. Apparently, it will be broadcast live again today.

Site is http://www.8newsnow.com/category/187...now-live-video

Most of the witnesses don't know the difference between a pistol and a cantaloupe, but there's always a chance.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by plato

Re: first option.....It would be my first choice. A shot to other than the head will possibly to incapacitate a person sooner or later. I imagine many here with a purple heart can attest to that. A taser incapacitates faster.

Are you shitting me???

[Sacamuelas]

Originally Posted by spherojon

What struck me as odd was the toxicity report showing lethal amounts of morphine, Xanax, and a combination of other controlled substances.

See my earlier comment... I am, unfortunately, not surprised. The total circumstances are overwhelming in favor of a tragic but reasonable ending. I find sympathy for those that knew this man and that now suffer due to his choices. However, I find it incredibly short sighted to nit pick testimony of ALL involved as if there is/was some conspiracy to target this man.

This guy was not the guy that his former friends knew anymore.... at LEAST not on that day. Bad choices/drug addiction/under the influence/ very erratic and aggressive behavior all while armed with a pistol or two.... yep. He ended up getting the most likely end result from such activity. At least he didn't drive off and KILL a family of innocents while hammered on narcotics and extremely irritated.

[AngelsSix]

Originally Posted by Sacamuelas

See my earlier comment... I am, unfortunately, not surprised. The total circumstances are overwhelming in favor of a tragic but reasonable ending. I find sympathy for those that knew this man and that now suffer due to his choices. However, I find it incredibly short sighted to nit pick testimony of ALL involved as if there is/was some conspiracy to target this man.

This guy was not the guy that his former friends knew anymore.... at LEAST not on that day. Bad choices/drug addiction/under the influence/ very erratic and aggressive behavior all while armed with a pistol or two.... yep. He ended up getting the most likely end result from such activity. At least he didn't drive off and KILL a family of innocents while hammered on narcotics and extremely irritated.

He sure as hell didn't walk. He wasn't sober when he left his residence. Unless his girlfriend was driving, he had already put people at risk. The mere fact that he knowingly violated numerous laws by arming himself while medicated/intoxicated made him subject to the actions of the officers.

I am not trying to judge, apparently there was a lot going on in this man's life leading up to this. According to the inquest, he had been having issues long before this.

[plato]

Originally Posted by Blue

Are you shitting me???

Not at all. A number of PD's find the taser the preferred "weapon" in potential lethal force situations, as does the International Association of Chiefs of Police.

Chief Dan Linza would have made sure that I reached an internal temp of about 200 degrees before pulling my shield if I opened fire in a crowded area, or even "stayed in sight" possibly prompting an armed person to "pull".

And on the most personal basis, I often wear a nylon hand/wrist brace about 8 inches long, and there are apparently people in Las Vegas who can't tell the difference between nylon and blued steel in split second decisions.

[spherojon]

Originally Posted by Sacamuelas

See my earlier comment... I am, unfortunately, not surprised. The total circumstances are overwhelming in favor of a tragic but reasonable ending. I find sympathy for those that knew this man and that now suffer due to his choices. However, I find it incredibly short sighted to nit pick testimony of ALL involved as if there is/was some conspiracy to target this man.

This guy was not the guy that his former friends knew anymore.... at LEAST not on that day. Bad choices/drug addiction/under the influence/ very erratic and aggressive behavior all while armed with a pistol or two.... yep. He ended up getting the most likely end result from such activity. At least he didn't drive off and KILL a family of innocents while hammered on narcotics and extremely irritated.

I pretty much agree with you on this one.