WP grad killed at Costco in NV because he was carrying CCW - Page 4

Shar · 07-20-2010, 11:42

I appreciate everyone's messages of sympathy, but my upset over the situation isn't just because he was an acquaintance of years past. My first thoughts when I heard about the incident were for those I know and love who are CC/OCs.

I immediately wondered how easy it would be to "frame up" a situation where an otherwise law-abiding person was on the wrong end just because they were carrying. Regardless of the outcome of this situation - I'm certain that ill-feelings towards those who carry will be on the rise and that concerns me greatly.

I went to my local Costco the other day and spent a good amount of time looking outside the store, at the entrance of the store and anywhere remotely logical - and I didn't see posted anywhere a requirement that no weapons be on the premises. How does one know whether their weapon is "welcome" or not if it isn't posted? I faintly remember reading somewhere on this board about there being a requirement that when malls or the like do not allow weapons inside they must provide a location to check the weapons. True?

As a matter of course I'm guessing that those who carry do not regularly announce their presence with weapon to store management - so if it isn't posted... do you just assume you can carry? And, if it isn't posted and a random employee approaches you telling you that you cannot carry must you comply and exit immediately?

I hope this situation brings more clarity to the issues surrounding those with the legal right to carry in the minds of those of us who don't necessarily know the rules. Education can hopefully lead to preventing this type of incident from occurring again.

TrapLine · 07-20-2010, 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad

My neighbor's car was broken into in a Walmart parking lot. She calls the police. The police arrive and my neighbor, pointing up to a security camera, says at least they have a film of the crime. The police officer (HPD) just smiles and responds, "Maam, not one in twenty of those things work. Some were never even intended to work." This is referring to cameras OUTSIDE only.

I faced a similar situation when someone smashed out the window of my wife's car in a parking lot and stole her purse. I was surprised to hear the police officer say that the security cameras were of little use after I gave them a list of places the suspect attempted to use her credit card. I had to personally track the individual down by combining the footage from about ten locations. After all that, I realized how little concern there is for such property crimes even when the suspect is all but delivered on a silver platter. My wife is back in possession of the purse

, and now believes me that you NEVER leave anything valuable in the cab.

My condolences to Mr. Scott's friends and family. It is a sad reminder of the SA we must maintain while carrying.

Sacamuelas · 07-20-2010, 13:29

Shar-

State CC laws vary. In my state, there are defined places in the law that you can not carry for any reason (bars, courthouses, stadiums, fed facilities, state legislature, police stations,etc). It also states that private businesses can prevent carry if they place a easily readable sign at the entrance that can be viewed and read at a certain distance. These laws are printed out and given to you when you apply for a CCP. You have to sign a declaration that you have read and understand the law as written when you apply. I can still be asked to leave private property by any owner or agent of that business (business or personal) for any reason. To be confronted outright by store security, I would be quick to leave that establishment. I would be pissed (if there was no sign about CC),but I would leave instantly. I imagine I would never shop there again carrying or not.

If some person called the police ( private shopper or employee) due to imprinting of my weapon... I would be EXTREMELY cautious when the contact was made by store security or especially POLICE. Police do not have the option of running away if I scare them with my actions. They must intervene once contact is made and determine the situation. I wouldn't blame the police and I wouldn't blame the business for the interaction. I would very calmly talk and then follow directions from the police to resolve the issue. After all, if there was no sign then I am completely legal. I am very aware of the heightened adrenaline in people when they see or suspect firearms.

IMO, if you are carrying a firearm... you are accepting a higher responsibility to act mature and rational even when angry or unjustly provoked. You simply cannot act in a disturbed manner when dealing with anyone when you know you are carrying a deadly weapon. At least I wouldn't.
I'm trying not to speculate, but if I HAD to bet the ranch... I wouldn't be surprised to find out a pharmacy rx or something related did not set off this sequence of events.

I've seen that sort of irrational response myself when either making accusations or refusing Rx's to someone.

aharris · 07-20-2010, 13:34

Well Shar, laws vary from state to state on where and when one can carry.

Here in MN the law is that the location has to be posted a certain way (proper size and color sign, proper location, proper font, proper wording, etc.) for it to be considered "legally posted" so most of us here ignore the signs. For you to be going "against the law" even if it is posted correctly you have to be personally asked to leave by an owner or an agent (employee) of the owner of where you are.

Also here in MN, no land lord can restrict their tenants or tenants guests from owning or carrying firearms so office complexes and malls are out. So even though the Mall of America is posted (in the most non conforming way) and police will ask you to leave if you are noticed they can not charge you with anything for carrying.

In MN the only places you cannot carry are in court houses (without permission from the judge and/ or sheriff), k-12 schools (without permission from the principle), the capital area (without notifying the authorities by sending them a letter), and federal property. Most states have pretty much the same rules.

Places that can not post (such as the U of M) can not charge you with anything but trespassing, but they can kick you out. Students here can be expelled for even having a pocket knife on them much less carrying a handgun (or any other firearm as MN allows anything to be carried).

Utah Bob · 07-20-2010, 17:55

Quote:

The 2 most popular theories I've heard in the carry community where I'm from are:
An employee noticed the man carrying, asked the man to leave, the man stated that he has a permit for his weapon and does not need to. The employee went and told the manager that the man was being difficult. The manager then called the police and either told them what he thought would just be a "simple white lie" to get them there faster.

and

The manager was notified of the man carrying or noticed himself, then he decided to confront the man and was rebuffed and decided to teach the man a lesson.

Sounds like the "2 most popular theories" are that the store management was to blame.
Based on what evidence I wonder.

It would appear that there are a Lot of witnesses. Hopefully after the investigators are done interviewing them a clearer picture of what went down will emerge.
Everything else is mere speculation/theory until then.

219seminole · 07-20-2010, 20:24

At a store like Costco video tapes are likely a thing of the past. Equipment is digital now.

Utah Bob · 07-21-2010, 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by 219seminole

At a store like Costco video tapes are likely a thing of the past. Equipment is digital now.

A lot of retail stores have never upgraded their security equipment. Or even repaired it.

PedOncoDoc · 07-21-2010, 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utah Bob

A lot of retail stores have never upgraded their security equipment. Or even repaired it.

That is working under the assumption that the equipment was intended to be fully functional in the first place.

**The Reaper** · 07-21-2010, 11:21

Funny, I seem to see a lot of shoplifting cases where the primary evidence for the criminal prosecution is video.

Also used for verification to avoid/mitigate lawsuits.

Most warehouse or big box retailers have a video surveillance set-up that looks like a casino.

Anyone really believe that a nationwide retail store chain the size of COSTCO does not have functioning cameras inside and out?

TR

jw74 · 07-21-2010, 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Anyone really believe that a nationwide retail store chain the size of COSTCO does not have functioning cameras inside and out?

TR

Not me. The risk of a slip and fall case alone is worth the security.
15+ years ago I was talking to a loss prevention manager for a Target in San Diego. He said that the loss thru shoplifting alone was $60k a month. The idea that the cameras aren't on doesn't wash with me.

echoes · 07-21-2010, 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Anyone really believe that a nationwide retail store chain the size of COSTCO does not have functioning cameras inside and out?TR

Agree, TR Sir!

And jw74 summed it up, literally.

My own opinion? I Will not armchair QB, as I was taught here long ago by AM not to do that, and it was/is a valuable lesson.

Holly

Stingray · 07-21-2010, 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Funny, I seem to see a lot of shoplifting cases where the primary evidence for the criminal prosecution is video.

Also used for verification to avoid/mitigate lawsuits.

Most warehouse or big box retailers have a video surveillance set-up that looks like a casino.

Anyone really believe that a nationwide retail store chain the size of COSTCO does not have functioning cameras inside and out?

TR

No Sir. Certainly seems suspect to me.

Sincerely,

dfirsty · 07-22-2010, 18:07

DD: It looks like the subject is still inside the business, argumentative with the manager who asked him to leave, telling him there's no 413's allowed inside the business, break. The manager is a Green Beret and is allowed to carry a 413. He's throwing merchandise around; he's still in isle 126 in the camping area, break. He appears to be fidgety. A female joined the male. She's described as Hispanic, 30s, black long hair, wearing black tank and blue jeans. Security's going to be standing outside the business in front of, to wait for officers to direct, break. He's walking through the camping area towards the front of the business on the main isle. (13:18)

Let me first say sorry for the loss of your friend Shar.

My $.02 is there is a good possibility that it wasn't the manager saying he was a Green Beret, but rather Mr. Scott saying that he was, and that's why he could have a CCW. This dispatcher obviously had a lot of info coming in and could have relayed it wrong. In a city that size the dispatcher is getting the info from a 911 operator so it's 3rd hand.

I agree that if tapes come up missing there is something wrong.

Utah Bob · 07-22-2010, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfirsty

DD: It looks like the subject is still inside the business, argumentative with the manager who asked him to leave, telling him there's no 413's allowed inside the business, break. The manager is a Green Beret and is allowed to carry a 413. He's throwing merchandise around; he's still in isle 126 in the camping area, break. He appears to be fidgety. A female joined the male. She's described as Hispanic, 30s, black long hair, wearing black tank and blue jeans. Security's going to be standing outside the business in front of, to wait for officers to direct, break. He's walking through the camping area towards the front of the business on the main isle. (13:18)

Let me first say sorry for the loss of your friend Shar.

My $.02 is there is a good possibility that it wasn't the manager saying he was a Green Beret, but rather Mr. Scott saying that he was, and that's why he could have a CCW. This dispatcher obviously had a lot of info coming in and could have relayed it wrong. In a city that size the dispatcher is getting the info from a 911 operator so it's 3rd hand.

I agree that if tapes come up missing there is something wrong.

That was my impression also. Dispatch tapes frequently show errors made but as you said ther dispatcher is dealing with a lot of input and forwarding it. Things frequently get confusing.

6.8SPC_DUMP · 07-23-2010, 20:16

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