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Old 06-28-2007, 14:39   #196
The Reaper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afchic
"In a recent letter to Defense Secretary Robert Gates, Pinnacle Chief Executive Officer Murray Neal stated “My company stands ready to cooperate in every reasonable manner” with such a review.
Not if he is disbarred from bidding.

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Old 07-05-2007, 08:25   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
Not if he is disbarred from bidding.

TR

Just found this on AIM POINTS this morning. Thought you all might like to hear this!!!

Air Force recommends debarment for Pinnacle armor
BY: Jen DiMascio, Defense Daily
07/03/2007


An Air Force proposal has placed Pinnacle Armor, the maker of Dragon Skin body armor, on a list of contractors forbidden to take talking with the Defense Department about proceeding with an independent test of the armor.



On June 21, the Air Force general counsel upheld an Air Force Materiel Command recommendation and sent a proposal for debarment to Pinnacle for claiming its body armor was certified by the National Institute of Justice before certification came through.



An actual decision regarding debarment could take time, said Air Force spokesman Capt. Tom Wenz. Pinnacle has at least 30 days to respond to the Air Force's notification, after which a government debarment official has at least another month to make a formal decision about the case. In the meantime, Pinnacle remains on the list of debarred contractors and is not eligible to win new government contracts, Wenz said.



The issue came to light during a June 6 House Armed Services Committee (HASC) hearing that was called in response to an NBC News story. The story detailed the results of a test showing Dragon Skin body armor performed better than the Interceptor Body Armor used by the Army and other services. The news story contradicted an earlier test conducted by the Army showing that Dragon Skin had failed on a number of counts.



During the hearing, Army Lt. Gen. Ross Thompson, the military deputy to the civilian acquisition chief, spoke in support of the Army's initial tests. He added that the service was planning to look for new sources of body armor that might improve protection soldiers are currently receiving (Defense Daily, June 7).



On June 22, Acting Army Secretary Pete Geren wrote letters to the leaders of the House and Senate armed services committees endorsing that plan for a new body armor competition and inviting Pinnacle to participate.



The solicitation for enhanced small arms protective inserts officially closed June 27, but according to Geren's letter the service will accept responses for 30 additional days.



"As part of the evaluation process, the Army will test all body armor products that are submitted, including any products submitted by Pinnacle Armor," the letter said.



But because Pinnacle is on the debarment list, the company cannot participate in that competition.



That leaves the question of testing up in the air.



The Army could agree to test Pinnacle if it finds a "compelling reason" to override the debarment issue, according to Loren Dealy, a HASC spokeswoman. She added that no independent test is scheduled.



Regardless, members of the House and Senate think Dragon Skin should undergo another round of tests, said Josh Holly, a spokesman for HASC Republicans.



New tests would serve two purposes, he said. It would settle any lingering doubts generated by the news story, and if Dragon Skin turns out to be an excellent product, it would prevent the Army from missing out on the technology, Holly said.
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Old 07-13-2007, 19:48   #198
Karl.Masters
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"Emotional Terrorism"

Another take on the NBC Dateline body armor segment.

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/07/0...nal-terrorism/
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Old 08-05-2007, 19:15   #199
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been reading these forums for awhile. good forum guys

just thought I would add this link about the Dragon Skin
sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202007%2edb&command=v iewone&id=33
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Old 08-05-2007, 19:20   #200
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crn,

Follow the instructions in the welcome letter and fill out your profile and introduce yourself in the Introductions thread.

Kyo
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:59   #201
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So murray neal is not the inventor of dragon skin body armor.

The Army, Marines and Air Force have banned pinnacle armor.

The DoJ has decertified Dragon Skin. Mr. neal states the move is political and is an "Unprecedented Withdrawal of Certification by NIJ".

Pinnacle Armor, first to be banned by three military services.

First body armor to be de-certified by the Department of Justice?

hollywood and a few of their idiots believe dragon skin is great. Then again no one in hollywood has ever gone into harms way.

I’m guessing the first law enforcement officer killed in the line of duty while wearing pinnacle armor will put an end to pinnacle armor and Mr. murray neal.

Why does it take so long for the United States Law Enforcement community to wake up?

Someone needs to die first?

ProfessionalSoldiers.com is not the only website following the story;

Revealed: DoJ Dumps Dragon Skin body armor
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/08/0...in-body-armor/

Dragon Skin Gets the Shaft...
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/cat_armor.html


Dragon Skin SOV 2000 Certification Revoked
http://op-for.com/2007/08/dragon_ski...certifica.html

Dragon Skin Bites the Dust
http://blogs.knoxnews.com/knx/fredbr..._the_dust.html

Dragon Skin: Slayed Again
http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/005022.html

Lawmakers say body armor firm made false claims
http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=37128

Dragon Skin Under Investigation
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/0..._skin_und.html

What the "REAL" inventor has to say.....
http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Rifletile.htm

Mr. neal, ever think that calling a retired Special Forces soldier a liar was a good idea?

I didn’t think so.

Stupid is as stupid does.

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Old 08-31-2007, 14:33   #202
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Then today

Dragon Skin Passes Again: NIJ-Certified Lab Test Validates 6-Year Warranty
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1043

And that sight links to a SFFT article about how the decertification was unprecedented. How zylon armor had failed in the line of duty and then 5 months of testing and then 2 and half years they were still issueing citations. Well it is a nuanced situation maybe, but pretty interesting that zylon wich had a failure in the line of duty wasn't immediately decertified but dragon skin with no reported failures was.
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Old 08-31-2007, 16:05   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txzen
...pretty interesting that zylon which had a failure in the line of duty wasn't immediately decertified but dragon skin with no reported failures was.

I care not what testing it passed that "validated its 6-year warranty." NIJ certification has nothing to do with DOD and Army testing. The environments that soldiers operate in and around are worlds apart from those that a LEO does.

Comparing apples to oranges again but this time its LEO lives in the balance.

Crip
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Old 08-31-2007, 16:16   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txzen
Dragon Skin Passes Again: NIJ-Certified Lab Test Validates 6-Year Warranty
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1043

And that sight links to a SFFT article about how the decertification was unprecedented. How zylon armor had failed in the line of duty and then 5 months of testing and then 2 and half years they were still issueing citations. Well it is a nuanced situation maybe, but pretty interesting that zylon wich had a failure in the line of duty wasn't immediately decertified but dragon skin with no reported failures was.
That's nice.

I personally do not care as the military no longer uses dragon skin body armor. If the thousands of LEO departments failed to take notice of the military ban then so be it. I've said it before, it will take a cop being killed before they understand the issues involved.

I would not trust Mr. neal as far as I could throw him, IMO his credibility is lower than zero, defensereview.com ain't far behind....
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Old 08-31-2007, 16:44   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txzen
... dragon skin with no reported failures was.
And how do you know this?

TR
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Old 08-31-2007, 20:37   #206
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Well I know about the zylon failure but not a dragon skin line of duty failure, I will say I have not been told of any, as in none reported to me at least. I did searches and found none. I found a similar line on pinacles webpage. plus wouldn't failures in the line of duty be at least part of the arguement against it? I just posted it because people were posting the decertification and the circumstances of the decert are interesting compared to other systems with widely reported on failures.

I would think that the test isn't a secret and surely the test facility wouldn't want false reports about it going around. I guess defensereview could have lied but I think they would have a big problem on thier hands if they did, but I posted that defensereview site because I saw it had been used as a source of the previous post to mine.

pinnaclearmor.com/in-the-news.php maybe they lied but I would think that someone would come up for a lawsuit about that. The official line is there have been no reported failures in the line of duty. Now I searched, if you can find in the line of duty reports of dragon skin system failures I will redact this assertion.

Last edited by txzen; 08-31-2007 at 20:47.
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Old 08-31-2007, 21:12   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txzen
Well I know about the zylon failure but not a dragon skin line of duty failure, I will say I have not been told of any, as in none reported to me at least. I did searches and found none. I found a similar line on pinacles webpage. plus wouldn't failures in the line of duty be at least part of the arguement against it? I just posted it because people were posting the decertification and the circumstances of the decert are interesting compared to other systems with widely reported on failures.

I would think that the test isn't a secret and surely the test facility wouldn't want false reports about it going around. I guess defensereview could have lied but I think they would have a big problem on thier hands if they did, but I posted that defensereview site because I saw it had been used as a source of the previous post to mine.

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/in-the-news.php maybe they lied but I would think that someone would come up for a lawsuit about that. The official line is there have been no reported failures in the line of duty. Now I searched, if you can find in the line of duty reports of dragon skin system failures I will redact this assertion.
Just a note of interest here, of your 24 Posts in here only TWO were not in this Thread!!

What kind of stake or claim do you have in this?!?!?! Your first post was in this Thread and not in the Intro, you were busted for it!!!

Do the Zylon failures that you mention have the DOD Certification that DS could not achieve?!?!?!

You really do not know what/with whom you are dealing with in here!!!!!

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Old 08-31-2007, 21:38   #208
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I have to agree with AM. You seem to have an agenda here.

As for DS, if you cheat, and put a bogus certification label inside your vest that you haven't earned, sell them to one branch of the military anyway, then fail military testing, and lie about it, you SHOULD be disbarred and prohibited from further government business.

I don't know what your deal is, but if one of my friends in the Box gets killed wearing that crap, someone is going to be very, very sorry.

TR
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Old 08-31-2007, 22:26   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txzen
Well I know about the zylon failure but not a dragon skin line of duty failure, I will say I have not been told of any, as in none reported to me at least. I did searches and found none. I found a similar line on pinacles webpage. plus wouldn't failures in the line of duty be at least part of the arguement against it? I just posted it because people were posting the decertification and the circumstances of the decert are interesting compared to other systems with widely reported on failures.

I would think that the test isn't a secret and surely the test facility wouldn't want false reports about it going around. I guess defensereview could have lied but I think they would have a big problem on thier hands if they did, but I posted that defensereview site because I saw it had been used as a source of the previous post to mine.

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/in-the-news.php maybe they lied but I would think that someone would come up for a lawsuit about that. The official line is there have been no reported failures in the line of duty. Now I searched, if you can find in the line of duty reports of dragon skin system failures I will redact this assertion.
1. Who reports to you?
2. What units are issuing DS that would include DS in a LOD investigation?
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Old 08-31-2007, 23:51   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surgicalcric
I care not what testing it passed that "validated its 6-year warranty." NIJ certification has nothing to do with DOD and Army testing. The environments that soldiers operate in and around are worlds apart from those that a LEO does.

Comparing apples to oranges again but this time its LEO lives in the balance.

Crip
Along these lines, several items procured by the government/military require commercial certification, however commercial certification in itself is not the be all end all. The contract and government specifications can add a multitude of additional requirements and tests beyond certification.

For example one can purchase metal certified to a certain ASTM standard, yet the government can tack on additional tests to ensure it meets the necessary quality requirements. Pinnacle waving a cert doesn't mean anything if it failed Army testing. In certain situations, one may not have commercial cert, yet the military may want it since it meets their needs and not the overall industry's.
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