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Old 06-24-2015, 12:32   #61
Sigaba
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History is complicated, especially when the winners decide the nuances recorded/interpreted for posterity.
MOO, what is striking about the historiography of Reconstruction is the extent to which the defeated were able to establish narratives that were socially/culturally acceptable and politically correct well into the mid twentieth century <<LINK>>. This trajectory of scholarship went hand in hand with the defeated seeking to re-write the history of their rebellion <<LINK2>>.

IRT the comparison of racism in Indiana (and the north more generally) and racism in South Carolina, if the year were 1858 (or 1878) and you and your wife and your children were black, where would you rather live?
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:44   #62
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IRT the comparison of racism in Indiana (and the north more generally) and racism in South Carolina, if the year were 1858 (or 1878) and you and your wife and your children were black, where would you rather live?
Nice attempt at deflecting the point made. In Indiana in 1858 and 1878, blacks were constitutionally prohibited from moving here.

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There were even restrictions upon the right of Negroes to enter the state. An act of 1831 required colored immigrants to give a bond for good behavior and self-support. Overseers of the poor were authorized to hire out for six months any Negroes without such bonds, or on order of a justice, to remove such Negroes from the state to the place of last legal residence. It was illegal for anyone to employ any Negro who did not have such a bond. These restrictions remained in force until 1852, and they were upheld by the courts.31 The Constitution of 1851, effective the next year, went far beyond earlier limitations on colored migration to the state; its provisions completely denied Negroes the right to enter the state, declared that any contracts made by Negroes entering in violation of this provision should be void, and provided a penalty of ten to five hundred dollars fine for employing or otherwise encouraging such Negroes to remain in the state, all such fines collected to be appropriated for the foreign colonization of Negroes already in the state.32 In fact, Indiana appeared so anxious to dispense with its colored population that the legislature appropriated five thousand dollars to colonize Negroes, then residents of Indiana, in Africa; hundred acre tracts of land were to be purchased and given to Negro emigrants; if necessary, each Negro was to be given fifty dollars to induce him to leave the State. County treasurers were authorized to accept donations and bequests for colonization purposes, and a state Board of Colonization, composed of the governor and other high state officials, was created.33 Negroes in the state prior to the adoption of the Constitution were to register with the county clerk and receive a certificate of their right to remain in the state. This certificate was required to give a Negro the right of contract or to legally gain employment anywhere in the state.
Any Negro entering the state was to be fined from ten to five hundred dollars.
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:51   #63
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Why would any State/Fed entity display a symbol that was fought against and defeated at great cost....when that defeated entity actively supported slavery of an ethnicity that are now citizens?
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Old 06-24-2015, 14:51   #64
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From my family's history, how many others like my Great Grandfather, fought against thieves/invaders and had no idea of the larger political issues of the day?
How many of you would fight to defend your family from an invader? To pretend that the cause of the war was exclusively slavery one would also need to prove that the government of the south would be able to propagate and disseminate that story without todays communication and with illiterate citizens.

With respect,

Bob
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Old 06-24-2015, 15:12   #65
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From my family's history, how many others like my Great Grandfather, fought against thieves/invaders and had no idea of the larger political issues of the day?
How many of you would fight to defend your family from an invader? To pretend that the cause of the war was exclusively slavery one would also need to prove that the government of the south would be able to propagate and disseminate that story without todays communication and with illiterate citizens.

With respect,

Bob
So what.....not all Germans were Nazi's yet they supported a regime that killed/enslaved. Not an exact analogy but you get the point.
I expect you to be better informed than your Great Granddad as you have more information as to the formation of the secession.

That battle Flag has no business on any State/Fed property.

BTW, I had 3 immediate family members killed during the conflict...2 at Shiloh, then called Pittsburg Landing and one at Gettysburg.
The two from Shiloh were reinterred at Burr Oak Cemetery in Michigan and the other is buried with the Michigan Rgmt. at Gettysburg.

Do I think they would be excited about rebel flags on Federal property? Doubt it.
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Old 06-24-2015, 15:21   #66
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Exactly my point. How would people here feel if a govt agency displayed a Mexican battle flag in the south west? It is not about black vs white or slavery it is about flying the flag of a n enemy of this country. I have great respect for many of the confederate leaders however I do not agree with flying the flag in an pffical capacity. Indivdules are free to display it however.
Agree...and my point too except I do include the slavery issue as it was a part of the Confederate Constitution with specifics.

I know our original Const. had clauses about indentured/slaves too. However, the rest of the Country was moving away from that to abolishment.....the South reaffirmed slavery specifically. The 1860 Census tells the tale.
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Old 06-24-2015, 17:00   #67
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Yes Sir, (PRB), I have learned what was taught in school and I have listened to the stories handed down thru time from those families who had relatives that participated. I have also lived in the north where the "history" of the War Between the States is taught. Two completely different worlds. The question for me is not whether or not to take the Bars and Stars down; take it down. But to vilify all of the people that fought, brother against brother, both North and South, from the narrative of slavery seems to me to be skewed.
As far as what inspired the genesis of Nazi Germany, (some say The Treaty of Versailles), and the CSA, I see a world of difference in the people, the technology of the time, the goals of the two combatants, all the way thru the execution of those goals. The nazis were the aggressors - they killed, took land and material, all for the goal of creating a master race. BS, they took to enrich themselves until the allies stopped them. From a "CSA" standpoint, from what I have learned, some states didn't like what the Feds were doing so they seceded from that union. As far as a correlation, I do not believe that the South marched thru entire states burning a path to the sea, but that type of destruction does seem familiar, Nazi Germany, everywhere they went.
One point that is interesting for me, is that you had relatives in that war. Families of most who I have met had not even arrived in The United States of America yet, but they are just as adamant about the south being racist/slaveowners. I find that people fail to consider the context of the time and circumstances surrounding that historic period of the United States.

With all of my respect sir,

Bob
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Old 06-24-2015, 17:44   #68
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Isn't that what the "lone CSA" flag represents flying over a Confederate Memorial in the city that began our Civil War for the right to be different. The right to be free!
Such an argument 'might' carry some weight...were it not for three things:

(1) the issue over which SC sought to secede as stated in their Declararation of Secession ( http://www.civil-war.net/pages/south...eclaration.asp ),
(2) Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens' so-called "Cornerstone Speech" on the fundamental differences between the CSA and USA Constitutions (the core principal that "Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."
(3) the how, why, and where that flag wound up on the grounds of SC's capitol.

There was no CSA flag - 'battle' or otherwise - flying there until the one involved in the recurrent controversy was placed atop the capitol dome to join the US and SC state flags in 1961 in commemoration of the 100th anniversary of the start of the Civil War - to celebrate when CSA forces attacked US forces in Charleston harbor.

In 1962, in defiant response to the advancing Civil Rights movement, it was voted upon by the state legislature to remain atop the capitol's dome indeffinately.

Under pressure from mass protests in 2000, it was removed from the capitol dome...but placed in front of it on the building's grounds next to statues dedicated to (1) CSA veterans and (2) to former SC Governor (1890-1894) and US Senator (1895-1918) Ben Tillman, an avowed white supremacist who often spoke out against blacks and led a paramilitary group of Red Shirts (paramilitary white supremacist groups which assaulted and intimidated black would-be voters, killed black political figures, and skirmished with the African-American-dominated state militia to regain political control of the state government) during South Carolina's violent 1876 elections.

On the floor of the U.S. Senate, Tillman openly boasted of having helped to kill blacks during SC's 1876 campaign and frequently ridiculed them. For example, on President Teddy Roosevelt's meeting with Booker T. Washington, Tillman said, "The action of President Roosevelt in entertaining that n****r will necessitate our killing a thousand n*****s in the South before they learn their place again." (Ben Tillman and the Reconstruction of White Supremacy (2000), by Stephen Kantrowitz. University of North Carolina Press, p. 259.)

I think there is a whole lot more to this "battle" flag issue on the SC statehouse grounds than we or its defenders are either willing to admit or are aware, but from what I've learned of the matter, I feel the same way PRB does about it.

Richard
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Old 06-24-2015, 18:13   #69
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Richard, thanks for the information. I admit I know little of certain personalities responsible for certain regrettable acts in our history. A history that is often dark and disturbing.

To me it would seem more appropriate to remove and relocate all such symbols to a proper place where people can visit whether to support or rail against. Museums and battlegrounds of the war sounds appropriate. However, maybe the location it currently is is also the appropriate place for such a divisive issue. Not separate and divide but to debate and find common ground.

This is bigger than a piece of cloth and its location. As I said in my first post - it's an "identity" right or wrong isn't for me to decide.

ETA: I distinctly an vividly remember my first visit to the Dachau concentration camp. That was over 30-years ago and the memories are still strong. I'd hate for someplace so despicable and void of purpose be paved over and turned into an amusement park because it's the PC thing to do. We must always be reminded of our past transgressions so as to not travel that path again.
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Old 06-24-2015, 18:47   #70
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Why would any State/Fed entity display a symbol that was fought against and defeated at great cost....when that defeated entity actively supported slavery of an ethnicity that are now citizens?
BINGO!!
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Old 06-24-2015, 21:34   #71
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My $0.02.

Clay Travis of all people said it best today - "we've lost the ability to put things into context"...something our community prides itself on when we call it cross-cultural competency.

The flag is on State grounds because those States considered themselves to be out from underneath Old Glory for those four years and when their State demanded that they fight (the first draft in US history), many veterans did and many died. It is a military recognition, hence the Battle Flag (the "Southern Cross," not the "Stars and Bars" as I have seen referenced on many sites and in this thread). This is an important distinction. If you saw the Bonnie Blue Flag, that might be a political statement.

I continue to see CSA VP Stephens' cornerstone speech referenced in this political firestorm. Jefferson Davis, the President, made no mention of slavery in his inaugural speech. Stephens is indefensible, but keep in mind his comments in 1861 sound a lot like Lincoln's in the 1858 Senatorial debates in Illinois. Stephens also vehemently opposed secession and was chosen as a counterbalance to Davis. They were different in almost every way. Davis said in 1861 that no matter the outcome of the war, slavery would eventually cease in the South. His stated goal was a generation worth of education and Christianity to prepare the South and the slaves for an emancipated, functional society. Basically the opposite of Reconstruction.

Some Southern States had already taken drastic steps (and come within one vote in the case of Virginia) to outlaw slavery before the watershed moment when Lincoln didn't appear on 10 of 11 Southern ballots and still won the election (what they perceived to be akin to government without representation). The CS Constitution outlawed the slave trade. Did the South writ large think slavery was acceptable? Of course. The issue is that we are now pretending that the North didn't. SC's initial verbiage in defense of slavery may have been genuine, or it may have been grasping at legal straws to make their case and get other States to rally behind their cause. We're selectively forgetting that the Fugitive Slave Act was a legal mandate that both North and South saw as binding. Lincoln's own words on slavery and equality are well known and make it hard to argue that Emancipation was anything more than an expertly executed political maneuver. My point in bringing this all up is that the "North was against slavery and the South was for it" is an ahistorical sentiment when context is considered.

But this isn't about Lincoln, or Davis, of Stephens, or the very very small percentage of Southerners who owned slaves and held way too tightly to an aristocratic Cavalier tradition. It's about a Battle Flag that is a military memorial and, in the South, believed to be a testament to the Southern traditions of skill in war-fighting (600k versus 2 million) and resistance to any oppressive government (foreign or domestic).

To those who descend from Yankee soldiers, congratulations on a bloodline that includes brave men who traveled far into enemy territory and emerged victorious. If you think they would be offended by Confederate monuments in the South, please remember that in Indianapolis there is literally a monument of Lady Liberty trampling the Confederate Flag. Southerners should not see fit to complain about this because (1) the North won, and (2) it is celebrating their States' contributions in war to a victorious cause. They should be proud, even if my distant relative died carrying the flag at Lady Liberty's feet after being drafted into service and getting on line in his own backyard against a group of armed men from thousands of miles away. Each veteran can be celebrated according to the will of those they fought for.

Sadly, I haven't seen many people quoting the Generals and Soldiers who led and fought in the war. They and their descendants are for whom the Battle Flag is most relevant. Thankfully Grant, Sherman, Taylor, and many others left their accounts for us to read. Through Grant and Sherman we know they gave zero thought during the war to ending slavery and it is widely known that Grant held onto his slaves until the 13th Amendment was formally passed (Lee did not). We also know that Johnston, Hill, Stuart, Lee and many other leading Confederates were not slave-owners. In Company Aytch, Confederate Private Sam Watkins scoffs at the notion that he or any of the actual fighting men cared about preserving slavery. Many notable Confederate authors did the same in years following the war.

Yes, the South writ large was wrong to condone the society it did leading up to and through the war. Yes, Davis was outmaneuvered by Lincoln and allowed slavery to become the issue from 1863-on. Yes, the North made loads of money on the slave trade (also in the Caribbean and South America) and is on shaky moral high ground, albeit higher ground. And yes, you can still love the American Flag and appreciate the Southern Cross for what it is. I love the American Flag in spite of what many would call genocide, imperialism, oppression, racism, tyranny, and murder occurring under its shadow because I put things in context and develop a holistic appreciation for our American values and accomplishments.

Many of our heroes have dark pasts and, when taken out of context, committed deplorable acts. From 1861-65 many young boys, fathers, brothers, and sons fought and died at the call of their government. 150 years later, we are saying their deaths should not be honored by a flag they fought under because in our modern, enlightened opinion they fought for the wrong reason. And one day someone might be telling my great-great-great grandkids that I fought in two wars in the Middle East because I hate Muslims or something. How can you be against women on ODAs now, when in the year 2170 society will know that total gender equality was always the right thing and we were just bigoted dinosaurs who had yet to see the light?

Allowing the PC machine to win fights like this is, in my opinion, mission creep for continuing to ban anything "offensive" or "hateful" as determined by somebody, somewhere.
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Old 06-24-2015, 21:56   #72
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JGC2,
Thank you, well written. I learn something new every day from the best of the best on this forum. It will be up to people like you and many others to tell your story to your children so that they can pass along your thoughts in the many years and generations to follow...your history and legacy.

Bob
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Old 06-24-2015, 21:58   #73
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Well, IMO, it's post-CW Southern apologist PCism and a failure of the South (in general) to understand and honestly come to grips with its historical past that placed that flag where it is today and created this controversy, and any memorial that stands shoulder-to-shoulder with a memorial to the likes of a Ben Tillman honors not only those who may have willfully supported his "cause" (as so succinctly stated in the CSA's constitution and its member state's declarations of secession), but patently dishonors those who did so unwittingly and in good faith to their government who are also being represented in that nearby statue to the Confederate soldier.

YMMV - but so it goes...as should that flag from the statehouse's grounds.

Richard
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Old 06-24-2015, 21:58   #74
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Warner Bros. Removing Confederate Flag From 'Dukes of Hazzard' Car

Is nothing sacred. What next, "Northern" Fried Chicken, no grits, biscuits, or sun tea

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Warner Bros. Removing Confederate Flag From 'Dukes of Hazzard' Car
The General Lee - Bo and Luke Duke's vehicle of choice from 'The Dukes of Hazzard' - is a classic and instantly recognizable Hollywood car. But it's about to get a little less recognizable as Warner Bros., the studio that owns the theatrical, DVD and licensing rights to 'The Dukes of Hazzard,' has decided to remove the confederate flag from all future versions of the car.

http://screencrush.com/dukes-of-hazz...fbshare_mobile

They can replace Stars and Bars with the image of Che, Pol Pot or the Isis battle flag and everyone will be happy.
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Old 06-24-2015, 22:06   #75
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They can replace Stars and Bars with the image of Che, Pol Pot or the Isis battle flag and everyone will be happy.
So when did the "General Lee" Charger sport the "stars and bars"...?

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us-csa1.html

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us-anv.html

Richard
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“Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” - Robert Heinlein
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