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Old 08-08-2014, 01:29   #31
helicom6
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Reality Check

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Originally Posted by Trapper John View Post
TR, you may have just hit the nail on the head with that one. If they're captured, they're trade material and voila - Gitmo's emptied and a campaign promise is fulfilled.
This is not going to be popular...I'm sorry, but sometimes we all need a reality check...and conspiracy theories are not a useful source of information or conversation.

I am in total agreement about the responsible use of resources, and this type of abuse of assets has been historical in many conflicts. I would be just as outraged as any man here, if they were ordered into a situation without the proper means for success.

But to think a president is just sending his men into an area to be killed or captured to be used as pawns for the closure of a prison, is a bit of a stretch. Unless, you have concrete, written, tape recorded, and or, any other tangible intelligence.....

If this was a moment of venting frustration, I get that too...

Helicom6 out
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Old 08-08-2014, 04:39   #32
Remington Raidr
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Ya well

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Originally Posted by helicom6 View Post
This is not going to be popular...I'm sorry, but sometimes we all need a reality check...and conspiracy theories are not a useful source of information or conversation.

But to think a president is just sending his men into an area to be killed or captured to be used as pawns for the closure of a prison, is a bit of a stretch. Unless, you have concrete, written, tape recorded, and or, any other tangible intelligence.....
Helicom6 out
all the hard drives with concrete written tape recorded tangible intelligence have been erased and destroyed, see? It happens all the time . . .
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Old 08-11-2014, 02:39   #33
helicom6
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This I know....

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Originally Posted by Remington Raidr View Post
all the hard drives with concrete written tape recorded tangible intelligence have been erased and destroyed, see? It happens all the time . . .
I wish I had the answers to the world's issues....Diplomatic lines are crossed, treaties are ignored, governments fail, governments kill their own people, we supply weapons to friendlies that become our enemy. Men go to war, fight and die, and yet here we are...searching for a president to blame, searching for a government to blame, what policy failed, and we are still standing here in another shit storm of killing, murdering, and under the threat of terrorism by oppositional factions of democracy and freedom to live freely as human beings on planet Earth.

I know, that sounds like a bit of hippy bullshit, but I don't always make friends every where I go....I will say this, the more we sit around blaming who did this and who did that, or who didn't do this or that, the more time the factions of destruction to humanity have to carry out their mission!

I look at Iraq, and I see a country that was willing to adopt our views of democracy and to allow the freedoms of people to live as they chose, religiously or otherwise. This ideal in the middle east was in the infant stages of change.

There were agreements put in place before Obama to give control back to the Iraqi government and its people. This was done according to those agreements.

I do think we, as a country that made its investment, has some kind of duty to protect its investment. After all, we convinced it people to believe in the ideals of democracy and freedom. We would all give our lives here if our freedoms were impeached upon by a foreign regime. We cannot leave a country we gave hope to, and then turn our backs.

It is most certain, if men are required to enter battle, and with all of the assets we have available for support, that support must be given! No half-ass insertion of SF, etc is going to help anyone!!

I just want to look at the realistic operational details of the situation, rather than back talk about scheming presidents or policies. I mean if we really wanted to go there, we could spend all of our time talking history for days and weeks on end, and still never get anywhere!!

My opinion is this, and I have spent a lot of time with assets in the middle east discussing this view...We have spent trillions of dollars, the lives of thousands of men and women, but we have not stopped the rise of IS or squelched out Al Quaeda entirely, even with the demise of Osama Bin Laden. Syrian refugees flood into Tripoli, Lebanon and the young teen men and women then fall prey to IS operator recruiters for suicide bombings and IED placement and testing.

The sacrifice of these young people is now the knowledge the IS gains, and is then transferred to their forward operating personnel in the regions and areas they wish to inflict the most pain and suffering. As if they haven't already done enough.

Operationally, we must go after the major financial backers of this faction, as well as, disrupt the ideals of such factions, or just give up hope for humanity in the middle east, and turn a deaf ear and blind eye to that part of the world. We spend a lot of time, resources, and money trying to develop Africa, and other parts of the world, what do we do with the areas we have supposedly liberated?

Again, I want to focus on results that will matter for the future, not on supposed fantastical agendas of a president to liberate a prison through the blood of Americans. I still insist, show me any kind of intelligence, anything at all that would persuade me to think otherwise!
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Old 08-11-2014, 03:49   #34
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Please take my comment and questions as it is, but it seems from observations that the intention of the SF members of this board are very much in line with your units motto. There sometimes appears to be a disconnect though in terms of how the administration wishes to achieve their goals and it doesn't always seem that the oppressed are at the top of the agenda.

One of the observations from helicom6 regarding 'supplying weapons to friendlies that become enemies' and later on about 'going after the financial backers' and also regarding blaming the president and the incumbent administration etc. As an outsider looking at these situations that develop I cant help wondering how the following points possibly influence these happenings:

1. Government convincing itself that enemies are in fact friendlies, for example supporting the "moderate" opposition in Syria, Libya etc as a matter of expediency (the enemy of my enemy is my friend?) Only to have these factions run amok and destabilise entire regions after being empowered.

2. Allies of expediency and profit, such as Pakistan who were never a friend and have played both sides of the field. Saudi, Qatar and other small regional states that appear to provide the lions share of funding unchecked and safe havens to retreat and regroup to these extreme groups yet are regarded as valuable allies.

3. In Iraq setting up a government dominated by one sect or another knowing full well the sectarian nature of that society and having experienced first hand its propensity to erupt into chaos due to those divisions. (This notwithstanding the virtual impossibility of achieving a system in Iraq and elsewhere in a few short years that took western countries centuries to develop)

Could it be a mistake to soften the blow of war (or maybe compound the initial mistake) by sticking around to rebuild the country in ones own image in every instance? Sort of a middle eastern repeat of the Marshal Plan. It worked in Europe and Japan after WWII but is it necessarily repeatable everywhere in regions where there are so many different factions that are not necessarily friendly and will state as allies on the one hand whilst always aiding and abetting the enemy on the other. It seems that there is a sort of schizophrenia associated with this type of external policy that may make success here a bridge to far and not solvable by any level of boots on the ground.

Who really takes responsibility at the end to make sure the policy works and not just for those who need it to work (or at least drag on) for a term of office?

Last edited by RomanCandle; 08-11-2014 at 03:54.
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Old 08-11-2014, 04:19   #35
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Originally Posted by helicom6 View Post
I do think we, as a country that made its investment, has some kind of duty to protect its investment. After all, we convinced it people to believe in the ideals of democracy and freedom. We would all give our lives here if our freedoms were impeached upon by a foreign regime. We cannot leave a country we gave hope to, and then turn our backs.
You do recall our investment in Vietnam, history seems to have a way of repeating itself, how about the killing fields of Cambodia? What is happening in Iraq sickens me beyond words in much the same fashion as world events four decades ago.
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Last edited by cbtengr; 08-11-2014 at 04:36. Reason: grammer
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Old 08-25-2014, 07:43   #36
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Funny how the Daily Mirror would have this before the American press.
SAS and US special forces forming hunter killer unit to 'smash Islamic State'


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...hunter-4097083
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Old 08-25-2014, 14:23   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helicom6 View Post
I wish I had the answers to the world's issues....Diplomatic lines are crossed, treaties are ignored, governments fail, governments kill their own people, we supply weapons to friendlies that become our enemy. Men go to war, fight and die, and yet here we are...searching for a president to blame, searching for a government to blame, what policy failed, and we are still standing here in another shit storm of killing, murdering, and under the threat of terrorism by oppositional factions of democracy and freedom to live freely as human beings on planet Earth.

People are doing what they are supposed to do hold our leaders accountable for their leadership or lack thereof.

I know, that sounds like a bit of hippy bullshit, but I don't always make friends every where I go....I will say this, the more we sit around blaming who did this and who did that, or who didn't do this or that, the more time the factions of destruction to humanity have to carry out their mission!

Having a strategy that considers the long term effects, will of the American people, will of allies and the impact of again not allowing the region to find its own equilibrium is what must be sold to the public before we make it worse. This is an ideology they are fighting we cannot just send in fast movers to break the will of an intense hatred towards westerners this generally strengthens the resolve and increases recruiting through martyrdom.

I look at Iraq, and I see a country that was willing to adopt our views of democracy and to allow the freedoms of people to live as they chose, religiously or otherwise. This ideal in the middle east was in the infant stages of change.

Iraq had more freedom than we do believe it or not, free market competition etc.... the only expression they did not have was the right to elect it's leadership. This is a dangerous ideology to impose on a region that IS NOT a country of immigrants who's way of life is ancient. Americans have little to no connection with it's tribal laws that governed our very own people hundreds/thousands of years ago. An ancient culture with no separation of church and state. These people are ruled by Imams, Ayatollahs and Sheiks. We cannot impose our way of life and values on them.

There were agreements put in place before Obama to give control back to the Iraqi government and its people. This was done according to those agreements.

Agreed, but.......... I remember during OND when Gen Rogers gave the order to pull out we all knew with the re-election coming up the Prez would make a decision to jockey for re-election by fullfilling a campaign promise but iironically he couldn't do it until he was running for re-election.

I do think we, as a country that made its investment, has some kind of duty to protect its investment. After all, we convinced it people to believe in the ideals of democracy and freedom. We would all give our lives here if our freedoms were impeached upon by a foreign regime. We cannot leave a country we gave hope to, and then turn our backs.

True we took their country by force, killed the rulers imposed our government structure on them and em placed it's military leadership as WE saw fit, they had very little say in it. We promised them a democracy?? yet Americans don't have a democracy we are a constitutional republic a country ruled by law. By the time we pulled out many were lamenting how much safer they felt with Saddam. They want a leader who is strong enough to keep all the sectarian violence in check period and most understand this, it would take a brutal ruler with the fear and respect of all the surrounding entities.

It is most certain, if men are required to enter battle, and with all of the assets we have available for support, that support must be given! No half-ass insertion of SF, etc is going to help anyone!!

Taking the country by force with no plan after the fall is why they are in shambles today and we did this with little planning beyond the invasion. The question to you is what is the American peoples will, do you really believe the U>S populace has the desire to send their sons and daughters into harms way again for another undetermined amount of time?


I just want to look at the realistic operational details of the situation, rather than back talk about scheming presidents or policies. I mean if we really wanted to go there, we could spend all of our time talking history for days and weeks on end, and still never get anywhere!!

What realistic operational details are you referring to?
Scheming Presidents and policies are inherent in politics we do not have to accept the fallacy of it.


My opinion is this, and I have spent a lot of time with assets in the middle east discussing this view...We have spent trillions of dollars, the lives of thousands of men and women, but we have not stopped the rise of IS or squelched out Al Quaeda entirely, even with the demise of Osama Bin Laden. Syrian refugees flood into Tripoli, Lebanon and the young teen men and women then fall prey to IS operator recruiters for suicide bombings and IED placement and testing.

So how would you solve this dilemma by diplomacy or military force?? The will of the people and their desire to support actions are what wins these kinds of conflicts and terrorism type activities are no different. If there was incentive I mean something they valued and stood to gain as a result of stopping terrorism from leaving their borders they would. If the people of the region had a reason to police their own they would and I don't think the heavy handed military approach will work we have BTDT. The people have pushed back and are lost without a dictator, their is no commonality amongst these tribes no one Grand Ayatollah to bind them in unity.

The sacrifice of these young people is now the knowledge the IS gains, and is then transferred to their forward operating personnel in the regions and areas they wish to inflict the most pain and suffering. As if they haven't already done enough.

Operationally, we must go after the major financial backers of this faction, as well as, disrupt the ideals of such factions, or just give up hope for humanity in the middle east, and turn a deaf ear and blind eye to that part of the world. We spend a lot of time, resources, and money trying to develop Africa, and other parts of the world, what do we do with the areas we have supposedly liberated?

OK who are the financial backers of ISIS and do you really think that a lack of money is going to stop a fanatical group who can and does resupply by force?. I know full well the connections between money launderers, cartels the gold coast etc... so how do we shut it down. A Leaderless organization driven by an ideology isn't exactly a pliable structure that can be simply shutting with a decapitation their tactics change every time something works well and no one tells them to change or not to do something they are driven by a hatred and fanaticism we have yet to understand.

Again, I want to focus on results that will matter for the future, not on supposed fantastical agendas of a president to liberate a prison through the blood of Americans. I still insist, show me any kind of intelligence, anything at all that would persuade me to think otherwise!
Since you seem out of the loop we are alluding to the exchange of the high ranking Al Qaeda operatives that become a symbol of a victory for them over us for 1 Bowe Bergdahl. You really do not understand this?
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Old 08-26-2014, 06:24   #38
Stobey
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Originally Posted by Penn View Post
Funny how the Daily Mirror would have this before the American press.
SAS and US special forces forming hunter killer unit to 'smash Islamic State'
Yes. That news bothered the hell out of me as well. Let me clarify. It didn't bother me that the Daily Mirror would have it before the American press; but that if any operation was planned, that the press of either the U.S. or the U.K. would have it to inform our enemies.

On the other hand: The U.S. had no idea Egypt and the U.A.E. were going to bomb Libya. (Couldn't imagine why.)
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/th...-to-bomb-libya
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Last edited by Stobey; 08-26-2014 at 06:32. Reason: Addl. info as to why Daily Mirror might have info the U.S. press does not
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