Why the Negativity?

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by Pete

I don't think it's like that. For the most part the people who you interacted with were exactly like you say. Friends and still are. People just doing what people do.

The rub comes when they have to start making choices. Choices can be big or they can be small. At some point they will be faced with my friends, my country - or Islam.

Good point,Pete....... They'll be choices alright,some good and some bad...... I'm afraid when it'll come down to that we'll see the real Islamists and we won't like what it will be.........

Big Teddy

[Scimitar]

Originally Posted by greenberetTFS

Good point,Pete....... They'll be choices alright,some good and some bad...... I'm afraid when it'll come down to that we'll see the real Islamists and we won't like what it will be.........

Big Teddy

My thoughts exactly.

I am concerned that there may be no such thing as a moderate Muslim only a lapsed one...?

Moderate indicates a solid belief system....lapsed indicates the possibility of duplicity for convenience.

Scimitar

[Warrior-Mentor]

Originally Posted by afchic

Sir,

I agree with you, and I have to say that many of my dealing with them, while at school, were with this in mind. But I also got to know quite a few of them on a personal basis, out of school. I met their wives and their children. I was invited into their home for meals. I still speak with many via email. Call it naivete on my part, but those folks I call my friends, and they call me the same.

Do I believe that some of the students came to get what they could, and learn as much as they could for us, for nefarious purposes in the future? I would be a fool if I didn't.

If you’re willing, let’s do an informal test with your friends – I’m curious to find out what happens.

Nothing over-the-top. Just greet them with the traditional greeting among Muslims.

“as-Salamu ‘alaykum.”

Then listen closely to their response.

Here’s why, Reliance of the Traveller states:

P75.28 “By him in whose hand is my soul, none of you will enter paradise until you believe, and none of you will believe until you love each other.
Shall I not tell you of something which if you do it will create love among you?
Increase the custom of greeting each other with ‘as-Salmu ‘alaykum.’”

If they give you an “as-Salamu ‘alaykum,” great – you have real friends.

I suspect what you’ll hear is “alaykum as-Salamu.” Or some other variant like “Wa ‘alaykum” or simply “alaykum.”

Why?

Because it’s the law.

O11.5 “Such non-Muslim subjects are obliged to comly with Islamic rules that pertain to the safety and indemnity of life, reputation and property. In addition:

(3) “are not greeted with ‘as-Salamu ‘alaykum.”

R33.2 “…Scholars disagree about greeting non-Muslims with ‘as-Salamu ‘alaykum’ or returning their Salams. We hold that it is unlawful to say it to them first, though it is obligatory to return their greetings by saying ‘Wa ‘alaykum’ (and upon you), or simply, “Alaykum.’ Other scholars hold it is permissible to greet them first with ‘as-Salamu ‘alaykum’ "

R 32.6 A male “…should not …greet her with “as-Salamu ‘alaykum” (A: which is unlawful in the Shafi’I school) nor return her Salams if she says them.”

[afchic]

Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor

If you’re willing, let’s do an informal test with your friends – I’m curious to find out what happens.

Nothing over-the-top. Just greet them with the traditional greeting among Muslims.

“as-Salamu ‘alaykum.”

Then listen closely to their response.

Here’s why, Reliance of the Traveller states:

P75.28 “By him in whose hand is my soul, none of you will enter paradise until you believe, and none of you will believe until you love each other.
Shall I not tell you of something which if you do it will create love among you?
Increase the custom of greeting each other with ‘as-Salmu ‘alaykum.’”

If they give you an “as-Salamu ‘alaykum,” great – you have real friends.

I suspect what you’ll hear is “alaykum as-Salamu.” Or some other variant like “Wa ‘alaykum” or simply “alaykum.”

Why?

Because it’s the law.

O11.5 “Such non-Muslim subjects are obliged to comly with Islamic rules that pertain to the safety and indemnity of life, reputation and property. In addition:

(3) “are not greeted with ‘as-Salamu ‘alaykum.”

R33.2 “…Scholars disagree about greeting non-Muslims with ‘as-Salamu ‘alaykum’ or returning their Salams. We hold that it is unlawful to say it to them first, though it is obligatory to return their greetings by saying ‘Wa ‘alaykum’ (and upon you), or simply, “Alaykum.’ Other scholars hold it is permissible to greet them first with ‘as-Salamu ‘alaykum’ "

R 32.6 A male “…should not …greet her with “as-Salamu ‘alaykum” (A: which is unlawful in the Shafi’I school) nor return her Salams if she says them.”

No offense, but I would never do that do a friend, knowing that in my heart I am testing them. Sorry, no deal.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by afchic

No offense, but I would never do that do a friend, knowing that in my heart I am testing them. Sorry, no deal.

The problem is you read WM's post.

It will now be in the back of your mind every time you get or exchange greetings in Arabic.

Your mind will be saying "Now what was that he posted?"

[SF-TX]

Originally Posted by afchic

No offense, but I would never do that do a friend, knowing that in my heart I am testing them. Sorry, no deal.

Or, perhaps, you are afraid of what you may learn about your friends.

[ryno]

My experience is limited to Arab Muslims as I have not been to Afghanistan yet. Many people here, especially the QPs, know that hospitality is a HUGE part of Arab culture. It was my job to meet with many of the locals around our AO in Iraq and almost everyone was friendly. They would often invite us in for tea and/or lunch. One of the local “reconciled” insurgents also was very helpful; too bad he was still running operations in the neighboring province.
My point is that I often saw behavior that we westerners would categorize as friendly, but many of these same people were involved either directly or indirectly with insurgent groups. The local sheiks would try to play us off against each other while their sons were out lobbing mortars at the base. By all appearances, though, they were moderates and very accepting of others. Most of the vets on this site saw the same thing daily and just as I did played the game, but they also grew eyes in the backs of their heads. I learned a lot about duality and appearances.
I have no doubts that some Islamic extremists in this country appear to be some of the most moderate and wonderful people you could ever meet. I also have no doubt that there are many truly moderate Muslims living here. The problem I see is by the time you figure out whether they are actually your friend or pretending to be it is too late. I can be friendly with them, but I just cannot let my guard down no matter what views they express to me.

[Warrior-Mentor]

Originally Posted by afchic

No offense, but I would never do that do a friend, knowing that in my heart I am testing them. Sorry, no deal.

Fair enough. Appreciate your honesty.

Consider it with a Muslim you just met or do not consider a "friend."

I was thinking about your statement driving in this morning...


The Logic Pattern:

___A___ requires ___B___ to do ___C___.

I know someone who is ___B___ and doesn't do what is required.

Therefore, ___A___ doesn't require it.


Let's fill in the blanks with a couple test runs:


Catholicism requires Catholics to attend church every Sunday.

I know someone who is Catholic and doesn't attend church every Sunday.

Therefore, Catholicism doesn't require it.

Clearly this isn't true.

Let's try another one:

Islam requires Muslims to wage jihad against non-Muslims.

I know someone who is Muslim and doesn't wage jihad against non-Muslims.

Therefore, Islam doesn't require waging jihad against non-Muslims.


Nope. That doesn't work either.

[afchic]

Originally Posted by SF-TX

Or, perhaps, you are afraid of what you may learn about your friends.

Maybe you and WM feel the need to test your friendships in such a way, I do not. I would never test a Christian friend in this manner, why would I do it to a Muslim friend? In my book, actions speak louder than words.

If you feel it is appropriate in your dealings with your friends, "have a nut" as my husband would say.

[T-Rock]

Therein lies part of the rub…
If only Islam didn’t contain the Doctrine of Taqiyya & Hudna…
Allah refers to himself as "Khayrul-Makereen", the greatest of all deceivers - Surah 3:54

[Warrior-Mentor]

Here's a thought for the day:

"dal mouimento annuo della Terra,"

Publishing these five words started a controversy for Galileo.

http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-...?msg_id=0001dD

Galileo's championing of Copernicanism was controversial within his lifetime, when a large majority of philosophers and astronomers still subscribed (at least outwardly) to the geocentric view that the Earth is at the centre of the universe. After 1610, when he began supporting heliocentrism publicly, he met with bitter opposition from some philosophers and clerics, and two of the latter eventually denounced him to the Roman Inquisition early in 1615. Although he was cleared of any offence at that time, the Catholic Church nevertheless condemned heliocentrism as "false and contrary to Scripture" in February 1616,[8] and Galileo was warned to abandon his support for it—which he promised to do. When he later defended his views in his most famous work, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, published in 1632, he was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy," forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.

"All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
~ Arthur Schopenhauer

[Richard]

My point isn't that all Muslims are bad. That's not it.
There are good Muslims.
The point is, there's no such thing as good islam.

Some people aren't picking up the distinction between Muslims and islam.

Muslim - also Mos·lem (mzlm, ms-) A believer in or adherent of Islam.

- American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language

After reviewing the definition of Muslim and the postings of the past six months - a consistent point-of-view that if a Muslim invited to the table falls off their chair it's the entire Islamic culture vs when anyone else falls off it's an individual act - the effontry and hypocrisy shown in the illogicalness of this stated position is beyond belief.

Richard's $.02

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by Richard

Muslim - also Mos·lem (mzlm, ms-) A believer in or adherent of Islam.

- American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language

After reviewing the definition of Muslim and the postings of the past six months - a consistent point-of-view that if a Muslim invited to the table falls off their chair it's the entire Islamic culture vs when anyone else falls off it's an individual act - the effontry and hypocrisy shown in the illogicalness of this stated position is beyond belief.

Richard's $.02

Richard,

I remember when I was just a kid in Chicago during WW2,There were quite a few Germans in Milwaukee that claimed being a Nazi didn't mean they supported everything Hitler said and did was wrong......... I'm not the smartest guy here in this forum thats for sure,but it seems to me it's like what most Muslims say about Islam.............

Big Teddy

[Richard]

Teddy,

Not the point.

If one says Islam is bad and Muslims, by definition, are believers or adherants of Islam - Muslims must, therefore, be bad and it is then illogical and hypocritical to then state that you do not believe all Muslims are bad. It can't be both.

And so it goes...

Richard

[Warrior-Mentor]

Here's what's missing from our vocabulary:

Mino- Muslim in name only. Those "practioners" of islam who only adhere to those practices necessary to maintain the fascade of being Muslim due to personal beliefs that conflict with the doctrines of islam or fear of retribution as a result of leaving the faith.

You also have the false dichotomy of treating belief as if it were a bianary property. Unlike pregnancy, there are levels of belief.
What's required by the doctrine of the faith is another issue all together.






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