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Old 12-13-2016, 11:57   #16
Zorro
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I remember clearly in Robin Sage the G chief holding up a drink, and giving one to the Captain, and making a toast to our recent victory. The good captain wouldn't drink, it had been forbidden by higher. The G chief went apeshit.... After much drama, the captain took the drink, while the instructor winked off to the side.

The lesson was clear. Sometimes following the rules directly hurts accomplishment of the mission, and you should have the presence of mind and maturity to recognize those moments and break the rules. I have no idea if this lesson is institutionalized, or command approved, or still taught..... But it sums up nicely the realities that ODAs face all the time. Sometimes teams go too far, as CPT Golsteyn could attest to.
I remember that little test in Robin Sage as a CPT and I took the drink and downed it. Tasted like Jack Daniels mixed with Texas Pete Hot Sauce. It was awful. Funny that the guy playing the G Chief that offered me the drink was "Spearchucker" and the same guy that used to clear my 82nd ABN infantry platoon off the range at Fort Bragg.

As for the polygraphs, I've taken 4 CI Polygraphs and had minimal issues getting through it. The full scope that he took would have been more in depth but my guess is that he fell prey to the elicitation techniques of the polygrapher and just kept talking. Polygraphs are shit in my opinion.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:02   #17
Basenshukai
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
I remember clearly in Robin Sage the G chief holding up a drink, and giving one to the Captain, and making a toast to our recent victory. The good captain wouldn't drink, it had been forbidden by higher. The G chief went apeshit.... After much drama, the captain took the drink, while the instructor winked off to the side.

The lesson was clear. Sometimes following the rules directly hurts accomplishment of the mission, and you should have the presence of mind and maturity to recognize those moments and break the rules. I have no idea if this lesson is institutionalized, or command approved, or still taught..... But it sums up nicely the realities that ODAs face all the time. Sometimes teams go too far, as CPT Golsteyn could attest to.
Because you brought that up:

It's 2012 and the Cartagena Incident had just taken place a few months prior (Summit of the Americas in Cartagena Colombia where the Secret Service and about five CIF guys got into hot water). My company was next up on the rotation and we were read the "riot act" before we left. Of course, everyone was nervous of another event. On top of that, we would be the holiday rotation (right through Christmas and New Years). In fact, because of all of these factors I was selected to lead this company. I was already a company commander at the time, and because of the circumstances we would go into (embarrassing international incident just happened, the FARC-COLGOV talks were at a critical point, etc.), I was pulled from 10 months into my own company command and asked to lead this company into theater. Anyway, so I deploy and meet outgoing AOB commander. The Defense Attache decides that the best way to get to know one another is to have a quiet dinner at his home and discuss the way forward. He has his home staff prepare a terrific dinner for us and it ends, quite unsurprisingly, with a cup of wine. So, the guy I'm replacing sits there staring at his glass while the Defense Attache proposes a toast. I raise my glass. The Defense Attache looks at the major and says, "You don't like wine?". My replacement answers, "Well, sir, it would be a violation of my orders to drink this." The Defense Attache looks at him puzzled, "If anyone in-country can authorize an exception to this it is me. I'm the one who signs the damn thing anyway. Besides, the spirit of the rule is to prevent you from drinking at some watering hole and getting hammered and then doing something stupid. Right now, you are sitting with the most senior DoD official in-country who is asking you to join him in an after-dinner cup of wine. Drink the wine. I authorize it." "No sir. I cannot." Replies the major. The Defense Attache looks at me and I knock my glass against his, "Salud, Colonel" and we drink. Anyway, we had a phenomenal rotation. Not a single incident with my guys - we even had a Thanksgiving, Chrismas party, and New Years party. A near identical scenario took place when I was in Robin Sage.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:14   #18
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Because you brought that up:

It's 2012 and the Cartagena Incident had just taken place a few months prior (Summit of the Americas in Cartagena Colombia where the Secret Service and about five CIF guys got into hot water). My company was next up on the rotation and we were read the "riot act" before we left. Of course, everyone was nervous of another event. On top of that, we would be the holiday rotation (right through Christmas and New Years). In fact, because of all of these factors I was selected to lead this company. I was already a company commander at the time, and because of the circumstances we would go into (embarrassing international incident just happened, the FARC-COLGOV talks were at a critical point, etc.), I was pulled from 10 months into my own company command and asked to lead this company into theater. Anyway, so I deploy and meet outgoing AOB commander. The Defense Attache decides that the best way to get to know one another is to have a quiet dinner at his home and discuss the way forward. He has his home staff prepare a terrific dinner for us and it ends, quite unsurprisingly, with a cup of wine. So, the guy I'm replacing sits there staring at his glass while the Defense Attache proposes a toast. I raise my glass. The Defense Attache looks at the major and says, "You don't like wine?". My replacement answers, "Well, sir, it would be a violation of my orders to drink this." The Defense Attache looks at him puzzled, "If anyone in-country can authorize an exception to this it is me. I'm the one who signs the damn thing anyway. Besides, the spirit of the rule is to prevent you from drinking at some watering hole and getting hammered and then doing something stupid. Right now, you are sitting with the most senior DoD official in-country who is asking you to join him in an after-dinner cup of wine. Drink the wine. I authorize it." "No sir. I cannot." Replies the major. The Defense Attache looks at me and I knock my glass against his, "Salud, Colonel" and we drink. Anyway, we had a phenomenal rotation. Not a single incident with my guys - we even had a Thanksgiving, Chrismas party, and New Years party. A near identical scenario took place when I was in Robin Sage.
My rule for the guys in my company, who attended all of the major social functions with host nation and USEMB was that if you are willing to stand in front of the SOCSOUTH CDR and the GRP CDR and explain why you did it then it was fine. Zero incidents and they also knew to request an exception to policy before each deployment from SOCSOUTH.
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Old 12-13-2016, 13:13   #19
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As for the polygraphs, I've taken 4 CI Polygraphs and had minimal issues getting through it. The full scope that he took would have been more in depth but my guess is that he fell prey to the elicitation techniques of the polygrapher and just kept talking. Polygraphs are shit in my opinion.
Polygraphs ARE shit. They hit on innocent guys all the time and fail to find actual spies. I did a CI poly and immediately decided they were garbage (yes I passed). I think we still use them because they are a good method for making idiots confess to shit, not because they are accurate in and of themselves.
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Old 12-14-2016, 00:19   #20
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I remember that little test in Robin Sage as a CPT and I took the drink and downed it. Tasted like Jack Daniels mixed with Texas Pete Hot Sauce. It was awful. Funny that the guy playing the G Chief that offered me the drink was "Spearchucker" and the same guy that used to clear my 82nd ABN infantry platoon off the range at Fort Bragg.

As for the polygraphs, I've taken 4 CI Polygraphs and had minimal issues getting through it. The full scope that he took would have been more in depth but my guess is that he fell prey to the elicitation techniques of the polygrapher and just kept talking. Polygraphs are shit in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Basenshukai View Post
Because you brought that up:

It's 2012 and the Cartagena Incident had just taken place a few months prior (Summit of the Americas in Cartagena Colombia where the Secret Service and about five CIF guys got into hot water). My company was next up on the rotation and we were read the "riot act" before we left. Of course, everyone was nervous of another event. On top of that, we would be the holiday rotation (right through Christmas and New Years). In fact, because of all of these factors I was selected to lead this company. I was already a company commander at the time, and because of the circumstances we would go into (embarrassing international incident just happened, the FARC-COLGOV talks were at a critical point, etc.), I was pulled from 10 months into my own company command and asked to lead this company into theater. Anyway, so I deploy and meet outgoing AOB commander. The Defense Attache decides that the best way to get to know one another is to have a quiet dinner at his home and discuss the way forward. He has his home staff prepare a terrific dinner for us and it ends, quite unsurprisingly, with a cup of wine. So, the guy I'm replacing sits there staring at his glass while the Defense Attache proposes a toast. I raise my glass. The Defense Attache looks at the major and says, "You don't like wine?". My replacement answers, "Well, sir, it would be a violation of my orders to drink this." The Defense Attache looks at him puzzled, "If anyone in-country can authorize an exception to this it is me. I'm the one who signs the damn thing anyway. Besides, the spirit of the rule is to prevent you from drinking at some watering hole and getting hammered and then doing something stupid. Right now, you are sitting with the most senior DoD official in-country who is asking you to join him in an after-dinner cup of wine. Drink the wine. I authorize it." "No sir. I cannot." Replies the major. The Defense Attache looks at me and I knock my glass against his, "Salud, Colonel" and we drink. Anyway, we had a phenomenal rotation. Not a single incident with my guys - we even had a Thanksgiving, Chrismas party, and New Years party. A near identical scenario took place when I was in Robin Sage.
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Originally Posted by Zorro View Post
My rule for the guys in my company, who attended all of the major social functions with host nation and USEMB was that if you are willing to stand in front of the SOCSOUTH CDR and the GRP CDR and explain why you did it then it was fine. Zero incidents and they also knew to request an exception to policy before each deployment from SOCSOUTH.
Had a team leader that was Mormon in Peru. We finished the POI and the unit we were with gave us a big party with many Peruvian military traditions. We had a crap load of ceviche mixta then we stood up in formation in front of the HN soldados and drank beers with our Peruvian wings in them and had shots of Pisco. The captain did awesome by throwing the shot over his shoulder and dribbling the beer all over himself. He understood what he had to do and also didn't compromise his religious beliefs.

I on the other hand, after the shots ran outside and puked my brains out as I was on metronidazole!
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Old 12-15-2016, 06:55   #21
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Shit, I married a polygraph test...
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Old 12-29-2016, 06:25   #22
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Shit, I married a polygraph test...
The quote of the day!
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Old 12-14-2018, 18:10   #23
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Back in the news.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/former-de...ban-bomb-maker
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Old 12-14-2018, 19:59   #24
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Polygraphs ARE shit. They hit on innocent guys all the time and fail to find actual spies. I did a CI poly and immediately decided they were garbage (yes I passed). I think we still use them because they are a good method for making idiots confess to shit, not because they are accurate in and of themselves.
Polys can be shit especially when the examiner is not really skilled and/or experienced but what get's most guys is not the CI poly it is the lifestyles poly the OGA's gives......even the smartest of us get caught in those and those examiners are much better at identifying an issue.....with a the narcissistic sociopath is easily caught they can't help themselves like Goldsteyn they want people to know how badass they think they are
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Old 12-14-2018, 20:01   #25
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I'm a realist. I can imagine the fog of war. I can see doing what's necessary in a combat environment. But why the eff would you give a tv interview and cop to it? Isn't that something a SEAL would do?
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Old 12-14-2018, 20:04   #26
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Goldsteyn is his own worst enemy...he can't shut his mouth or conceal his arrogance
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Old 12-14-2018, 20:57   #27
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Polys can be shit especially when the examiner is not really skilled and/or experienced...

I've taken several and I'm convinced they're not that reliable.
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Old 12-15-2018, 00:37   #28
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... if you are willing to stand in front of the ...CDR and the GRP CDR and explain why you did it ...
This has always been the litmus test.
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Old 12-15-2018, 08:32   #29
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Arrogance and poor judgement got this guy. He self-selected.
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:35   #30
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Not advocating either way - but if you are going to do what he allegedly did...

...3S rule.

S. S. S.
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