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Old 02-10-2004, 16:07   #1
Roguish Lawyer
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Best Insurgent Leader

Who is the best insurgent leader in history? You can list a small group if you can't pick one. Why did you pick who you picked?
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Old 02-10-2004, 16:52   #2
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Oooh, a nice BIG stick today. I like it!
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
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Old 02-10-2004, 17:01   #3
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Good guys, bad guys or both?
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Old 02-10-2004, 17:16   #4
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Originally posted by CRad
Good guys, bad guys or both?
Both.
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Old 02-10-2004, 19:28   #5
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Quote:
Who is the best insurgent leader in history?
You have a criterion or set of criteria in mind for "best"? Best looking? Most effective? Militarily the best or politically or both? Best at a theoretical or practical level?

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You can list a small group if you can't pick one
Just to start the ball rolling I will throw out two figures, at least one of whom doesn't normally come to mind when you think of insurgents and both of whom are known more for conventional military acumen than guerrilla warfare skills (but an insurgency has stages and involves a whole spectrum of military means): Gen. George Washington and Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap.

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Why did you pick who you picked?
First names that came to mind. And to start the ball rolling.
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Old 02-10-2004, 19:37   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Airbornelawyer
You have a criterion or set of criteria in mind for "best"? Best looking? Most effective? Militarily the best or politically or both? Best at a theoretical or practical level?
I knew someone would do this to me. You are giving the others great pleasure in making me suffer this way. LOL

Pick whatever criteria you want. I meant most skilled in insurgency, but go in whatever direction you want.

Giap should be on everyone's top 10 list, I think, although Ho Chi Minh might be a better candidate. Excellent start. I think of Washington more as a pure military leader than an insurgent, but I have not studied his life carefully.
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Old 02-10-2004, 20:27   #7
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Arthur Simons


Referring to operations in Laos (White Star), some of which were not insurgency, some of which were. The notable thing is how successful the operations were.
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Old 02-10-2004, 20:57   #8
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Giap should be on everyone's top 10 list, I think, although Ho Chi Minh might be a better candidate. Excellent start. I think of Washington more as a pure military leader than an insurgent, but I have not studied his life carefully.
Ah but the devil's in the details. What is the basis for this distinction? Insurgent vs. "pure military leader"? Giap was certainly a purer military leader than Washington, who had been active politically before the war (Virginia House of Burgesses, 1759-74) and, obviously, after. If you meant to confine yourself to those engaging primarily in guerrilla warfare, then you have a definitional problem, since guerrilla warfare and insurgency are not synonymous (see the other thread).

And of course Giap's most prominent victory was a conventional siege.

And for that matter, while the tactics once battle was joined were conventional by 18th century standards, operationally Washington conducted a war of maneuver reminiscent of other guerrilla campaigns, avoiding battle when the enemy was too strong, fighting to outlast the enemy's will rather than merely defeat his forces.

Besides military and domestic political skills, Washington also mastered the diplomatic skills necessary for effective coalition warfare. The victory at Yorktown was the result of the effective relationships among Washington and his French allies Lafayette, Rochambeau and de Grasse (as a matter of fact, since Lafayette was the one who communicated the weakness of the British position in Virginia to Washington, and it was Admiral de Grasse's idea to go after Cornwallis, and it was de Grasse's squadron that defeated the Royal Navy and isolated Cornwallis, and half the troops at Yorktown were French, it can be argued that Yorktown was as much a French victory as an American one, if not more).

To keep the list, and the argument over who really qualifies as an insurgent leader, going, I will now add the Duke of Wellington, with specific reference to the Peninsular Campaigns (whence the term guerrilla entered the military lexicon).
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Old 02-10-2004, 23:47   #9
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I am going to throw out some names not normally associated with insurgencies. I think an argument could be made though.

Spartacus
Jesus
Mohammed

Any takers?
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Old 02-11-2004, 07:53   #10
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I don't know about the most successful, but Gandhi succeeded where more "traditional" guerrila campaigns didn't.

I'm running out the door, so I'll quote:

Quote:
In the late 19th and early 20th centuries a terrorist movement developed among Indian nationalists (especially in Maharashtra, Bengal and the Punjab) which was responsible for a number of assassinations by bombings and shootings. Even after Gandhi was as actively on the scene, the terrorists continued their actions. For example, as late as 1929 bombs were thrown. and shots were fired in the Legislative Assembly in New Delhi. At the end of that year a bomb exploded under the train carrying the Viceroy, Lord Irwin (later known as Lord Halifax when he was British Foreign Secretary and Ambassador to the United States). And that was not the end of the terrorist movement.

Subhash Chandra Bose by 1928 had achieved an impressive following with his cry of “Give me blood and I promise you freedom”. That year both he and Jawaharlal Nehru (later a supporter of Gandhi’s methods) favoured an immediate declaration of independence to be followed by a war of independence.
. . . .
Thus, rather than Indian non-violence being entirely natural and inevitable, it is clear that Gandhi deserves considerable credit in getting non-violent action accepted as the technique of struggle in the grand strategy for the liberation movement. It is clear that this acceptance by the Indian National Congress was not a moral or religious act. It was a political act which was possible because Gandhi offered a course of action which was non-violent but which above all was seen to be practical and effective.
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Old 02-11-2004, 08:55   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by lrd
I don't know about the most successful, but Gandhi succeeded where more "traditional" guerrila campaigns didn't.

I'm running out the door, so I'll quote:
Lisa, This is why we are friends. I was thinking about him last night and that he should make the list. One of the things Ghandi said that is worth thinking about was "Be the change you wish to see in the world."

I wonder if that thought had any affect on Che.
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Old 02-11-2004, 10:26   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by CRad

I wonder if that thought had any affect on Che.
Apparently not because the Quiet Professionals hunted him down and killed him.

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(And from what I understand Che went yelling kicking and screaming like the true coward he really was.)
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Old 02-11-2004, 10:47   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Apparently not because the Quiet Professionals hunted him down and killed him.

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(And from what I understand Che went yelling kicking and screaming like the true coward he really was.)
LOL - and he looked a lot like Lindh before they cleaned him up.

COME ON! This is a good question that should be generating a lot of figh...debate!
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

Still want to quit?
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Old 02-11-2004, 11:30   #14
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I do not know anything about Che, but I have seen his face on t-shirts, usually worn by movie stars and rappers, why is a part of our society enamored by him?
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Old 02-11-2004, 11:34   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Valhal
I do not know anything about Che, but I have seen his face on t-shirts, usually worn by movie stars and rappers, why is a part of our society enamored by him?
NO HIJACKING!
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

Still want to quit?
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