CA Supreme Court says Game Wardens don't need a Warrant

[Rattlerjake]

My problem is with the laws more than it is with the agents who enforce them. Many of the laws are archaic and can be detrimental to wildlife populations (and example would be protecting alligators - allowing hunting makes them more valuable and provides an incentive for managing them in harvestable populations (like was and is being done with the wild turkey), but states like NC put them off limits, period, which creates a blackmarket affect and poaching.
Hunting is NOT a privilege as was stated in a previous comment; driving is a privilege. You have a right to participate in "wildlife management" (hunting, trapping, fishing, etc.) for personal use. The states' laws and permit fees are supposed to help manage this resource on public lands so everyone can have the opportunity to participate, to help fund that management, and to punish those who abuse the resource. Instead, many of our laws pertaining to these resources are so limiting that even those individuals who try to do everything within the law can be prosecuted on technicalities. I have no problem with Wildlife enforcement officers being able to search a vehicle or personal property on public property as long as they have probable cause, but a warrant should be the minimum required if on public property. Poachers are a despicable lot, and are only in it for financial gain, and should have the book thrown at them, but in certain instances, where an individual takes a fish out of season because he is destitute and hungry, it should be handled differently. Additionally, I have known individuals who were prosecuted for "saving" an injured animal that was considered a game animal or protected species, when no rehabs would take them. Additionally, laws allow commercial harvests that cause huge destruction of fish populations, then they create new fees and strict limits for the individual. Most of our states and the federal government are geared more towards the money from commercial business than the rights if American citizens.

[craigepo]

Originally Posted by Rattlerjake

My problem is with the laws more than it is with the agents who enforce them. Many of the laws are archaic and can be detrimental to wildlife populations (and example would be protecting alligators - allowing hunting makes them more valuable and provides an incentive for managing them in harvestable populations (like was and is being done with the wild turkey), but states like NC put them off limits, period, which creates a blackmarket affect and poaching.
Hunting is NOT a privilege as was stated in a previous comment; driving is a privilege. You have a right to participate in "wildlife management" (hunting, trapping, fishing, etc.) for personal use. The states' laws and permit fees are supposed to help manage this resource on public lands so everyone can have the opportunity to participate, to help fund that management, and to punish those who abuse the resource. Instead, many of our laws pertaining to these resources are so limiting that even those individuals who try to do everything within the law can be prosecuted on technicalities. I have no problem with Wildlife enforcement officers being able to search a vehicle or personal property on public property as long as they have probable cause, but a warrant should be the minimum required if on public property. Poachers are a despicable lot, and are only in it for financial gain, and should have the book thrown at them, but in certain instances, where an individual takes a fish out of season because he is destitute and hungry, it should be handled differently. Additionally, I have known individuals who were prosecuted for "saving" an injured animal that was considered a game animal or protected species, when no rehabs would take them. Additionally, laws allow commercial harvests that cause huge destruction of fish populations, then they create new fees and strict limits for the individual. Most of our states and the federal government are geared more towards the money from commercial business than the rights if American citizens.

When you get a chance, would you mind giving us some citations for your opinions? Especially the portion wherein you state that a person has a right to participate in wildlife management. I would also be curious as to your definition of a "poacher".

[SLVGW360]

I would agree with quite a bit of what you said, if only looking at it from an outside perspective. Without having been a wildlife and wildlife enforcement professional, you are at a bit of a disadvantage because you don't get to see what we do day in and day out. Also, each state is quite different in their approach. Many states use the state patrol to enforce wildlife law. In my state, game wardens are wildlife biologists who understand the reason for the law and when it actually applies vs. someone who has no clue why the law exists and will enforce it because that is what it says in black and white. There is a distinct difference.

You'd be surprised how much the local warden knows about his community. It is a huge part of his job. We know who has fallen on hard times and if it came to it would rather poach a deer rather than ask for a hand out. We know who those people are and usually show up on their front step with the first deer or elk that we have to donate. Those are good people and we try our level best to treat good people well. Bad people need to be treated appropriately.

As far as hunting being a privilege, it is. It is licensed and authorized by the laws of this country. Hunting as a sport could go away at the stroke of a pen or the drop of a ballet. That is why it is so important to hunt legally, ethically and show respect for you quarry. You have the right to bear guns. You do not have the right to take public property at your own discretion. Some states have passed amendments to their constitutions making hunting a right. Others have tried and failed. I don't recall which states those are at this moment.

Take care,

RB

[PSM]

Originally Posted by SLVGW360

or the drop of a ballet.

Swan (Poaching) Lake?

Pat

[SLVGW360]

I should have typed "ballot". Thanks for the catch.

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by PSM

Swan (Poaching) Lake?

Pat

Is that the one where everyone dances in a ....




wait for it.....



two-two.....three?

[MR2]

I'm sure they sell them in Hunter Orange...

[FMF DOC]

Originally Posted by Tress

If I remember correctly it is pretty much the same in Pennsylvania. The PA game wardens and fish and boat officers have sweeping powers and pretty much can do almost anything that they wanted. They can go on your land any time they feel it is necessary without your knowledge nor with any prior notification/warrant.

I have actually seen them in action a few times, but only because I was the one that called them. There was a bunch of yahoos that lived up the road a bit that hunted for whatever crossed by their back door, whenever they felt like it, baited the deer, bear & turkeys (all illegal in PA), etc. They were actually driving down the road on opening day during rifle season, saw a doe crossing in front of them, stopped the vehicle and shot the doe in the middle of the road.

Every year the game wardens would nail them for something. And the beauty of the whole situation is that in PA. everything that you own that was used during an illegal hunt can be confiscated immediately. So if you transport an illegally taken animal they can confiscate your vehicle and you do not get it back if your are convicted.

Personally, I never minded the game wardens' broad powers since I never hunted or fished illegally. I never understood why one needed to bait deer, bear and turkeys when you could not swing a dead cat without hitting at least one in northeast PA.

Tress

Nothing has changed in PA, as stated above they can do whatever they want when they want. Which I have no problem with them taking down the poacher's around here.

[Destrier]

I am going to emphatically disagree. It is not beyond reason that if a LEO wants to get someone, that having a Game Warden 'along' would be rather convenient.

We have a Constitution. It is already beaten down enough. Allowing Game wardens this kind of power is not in the interests of Liberty in a Free Society.

As far as 'hunting public property' and hunting being a privilege...

I pay my taxes, I take care of my family. I will kill the 'Kings' damn deer in the fall on my property and stock my fridge.

Just a little too much Government being rammed down the Peoples throats.

[SLVGW360]

Destrier,

I don't know who you are and you don't know me. Because I am thankful for your service, I type this response with what I hope is the requisite due respect.

We likely won't agree at this point, but I have a couple of points to make. I would guess that you are from somewhere back East as deer tend to be a bit over populated in those parts. As you know, I am from out west. Things are a bit different out here, so I don't know that a direct comparison applies.

However, paying taxes has nothing to do with wildlife and wildlife management. The power over wildlife rests with the States. In my state, not a red cent from income taxes funds anything wildlife related it is all derived from license sales with a small amount coming from Federal excise taxes on sporting equipment. The critters belong to the people for whom we act as stewards. Poaching is no grand feat and is easily perpetrated. We rely on the people to grasp the concept that wildlife belongs to all of us and it is our collective responsibility to ensure that they have a place in our environment for future generations. Poaching is no grand feat and is easily perpetrated. The latitude we are given allows us to deal with those who fail to grasp or willfully disregard this concept.

I don't disagree that there are those who might attempt to exploit those powers. It comes down to the character and integrity of the individual as well as the age old saying of, "...just because you can doesn't mean that you should...". I would challenge you to find any other type of LEO that has as much patience and applies common sense to the degree that wildlife officers in my state do. We take great pride in doing our job well, fairly and impartially. I won't attempt to speak for others. And no, I won't allow that sort of thing to happen in my area on my watch.

Thank you,

RB

[Destrier]

I was not articulate enough in my previous posting.

Where I am located, military and retired military do not pay for tags, we simply go down to the hardware store and they hand them to us. I have 5 hunters in the house. One retired, 2 currently active military. Which puts us at 3 at no cost permits and 2 that we pay for permits. The deer population in my surrounding area is indeed over abundant. Vehicles making one to two dead deer on the side of the road on my 18 mile drive to work weekly (before retiring) is common. It is also the primary cause of vehicle accidents in the county. Farmers are given lee way to protect crops etc. I hunt on my private property. I do not need to wander onto my neighbors properties unless I need to track a wounded animal, which has happened only once. Of which I have permission.

For several years I had to remove new tree stands that kept showing up on my property and run off individuals that choose to ignore the signs requesting that any wishing to hunt my property knock on the door and ask. Just not a fan of unknown individuals wandering around.
Three years ago a group of coyote hunters and dogs nearly ran my wife and youngest in a stroller over on our path half a mile back. Same group had trucks on the main roadway with guys sighting over the hoods of their trucks across the open fields of my neighbors. Hunters-Poachers are out and about that need a lesson in hunting and property rights.


But that is not my primary point.

There is no group of men in history that given broad powers will not abuse them given time. This is not a personal reflection on you or any other warden. That is just the history of men. It simply comes down to Protecting the People from abuse.

When people are hungry. 'Non est inquirendum, unde venit venison'

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by SLVGW360

However, paying taxes has nothing to do with wildlife and wildlife management. RB

Are you familar with the Wildlife Restoration Act (Pittman-Robertson PR) of 1937, the revenue it generates, and for what purpose?

TR

[SLVGW360]

Destrier,

That I can agree with. I appreciate the exchange.

Reaper,

I am familiar with the P-R Act and the Dingle-Johnson Act both of which result in Federally imposed excise taxes on sporting equipment, motors, boat fuel, etc. I did mention that in my last post. My use of hyperbole in the portion you quoted caught me with may pants down in that regard.

Thanks guys.

[alelks]

All I can say is that in this day and time if someone breaks down my door even yelling "POLICE" and I fear for the life of myself or my family the intruders are going to die. There would be absolutely no reason for any law enforcement officer to be breaking into my house. How am I to know they are telling the truth just by yelling? I mean it's not like crooks haven't done that before.

I'll protect my family first and deal with the consequences later.

If for some reason they break my door down my mistake thinking it's someone else then it's their mistake and they face the consequences as I'm not taking any chances with my family's life.

[badshot]

Originally Posted by SLVGW360

Hunting and fishing are privileges that can be taken away. There is no right there.

On the other hand, if you are referring to the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, I can tell you there is a lot of gray area. As you can see, if you read the document that the court was weighing several needs.

I work in Colorado and can tell you that our laws are somewhat similar, but the intent of the 4th Amendment is adhered to very rigorously. I am not going to armchair quarterback what this warden did because I was not there with him and didn't see what he saw. Even the documentation given doesn't really paint the entire picture of what actually occurred. For many reasons cited in this document officers in my profession are given additional latitude due the nature of the environment in which we work. However, just because you might be able to do something does not necessarily mean that you ought to. It is all a balance and ties should go to your civil rights as a citizen of this country.

Poaching is no grand accomplishment. Wildlife crime is very easy to perpetrate and evidence is also easily destroyed. Also, I can tell you that wildlife laws are rarely seen as being as "important" as other laws. The dumb ones usually get caught relatively quickly. The smart ones just take a little more time. I have seen my share of grown men cry with snot half way down to their belt line. No class is immune (i.e. everyday criminals, really bad guys, regular guys, cops, soldiers (I was almost shot by one on 9/12/01), judges, clergy); we've caught them all. Having a few tricks up your sleeve that are santioned by the courts are necessary to be able to make a case on individuals who are having a major impact on your resources.

Whomever stated that this is a thankless job is correct. That's ok. We didn't get into it because of the fame or the money. We do it because we care about wildlife. Remember, cops sometimes die protecting other people. Some of us die protecting animals.

FWIW

RB

Nice RB and thank you...

Some folks don't know prevalent it is (one of the top crimes committed) or for the most part, you're on your own with perps (ie. no backup)

Montana does a poor job in this area, from paying the Wardens little compared to other leo's, having very few that focus on enforcement with no days off (ie. on call 24/7), and small consequences...unless of course you're an outfitter without a license...Anyone whom wishes to refute this, check their budget online before doing so please. What's on TV isn't always reality.

Good to know many other states that I'm not personally aware of do take it seriously.

bs