Teachers with concealed weapons, not best idea

[tonyz]

Colion Noir suggests most of the same things mentioned in this thread - he makes good points - and he may just be able to reach some folks who have been brainwashed for decades to believe that gun control is the answer.

How To Stop School Shootings
Colion Noir
Published on Feb 16, 2018

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m2cXCh...ature=youtu.be

[Trapper John]

Originally Posted by Ret10Echo

You also miss the idea of a defense in depth. A security/resource officer/police officer INSIDE the building has already lost the advantage.

If we're done using kids lives as a political tool and when we decide as a nation to stop living in a fantasy world of "safe places" we will get on board with the rest of the world that CHOOSES to protect their children (NO SHIT FOR REAL) and ACCEPTS the FACT that there is evil in the world seeking to do harm.

The Israelis have accepted that they live in a high risk environment and act appropriately.

We act a lot more like the Nigerians where entire schools are abducted.

Nope, we won't fix the problem because fixing problems does not fit political agendas.

EXACTLY!! It's about time we call it like it is. Dana Loesch, took a very courageous position to step out and say it IMO.

Who's agenda is being served by not solving this problem?

Without mass school shootings, the Left loses their argument for disarming American citizens.

[Badger52]

Originally Posted by Trapper John

Without mass school shootings, the Left loses their argument for disarming American citizens.

They do not want the argument to ever go away. Get rid of school shootings? Then it's back to the inner-cities, or something else like prohibitive tariffs on manufacturing. But they will never stop because, ultimately, they shit their pants at the thought of not being the great protector who knows best for all, including what you should think & will not tolerate lack of control over those who pull the curtain back.

As TS said, teachers likely don't have the mind- or skill-set to go "hunting." But I think that when the classroom door opens from the channelized kill-zone that's been created by architects a potential shooter should be greeted with a 2-way range.

[tom kelly]

Just about everyone who replied to this thread is preaching to the choir..2. Offensive Shooting School/Skills...Paul Howe teaches a course ADVANCED TAC PISTOL/RIFLE OPERATOR... which includes clearing a room in a shoot house. It is very difficult to predict anything;Especially, if it is in the Future. That being said, BEING PROFICIENT at using a weapon for offense and defense requires skill, training, and constant dedication to practice even to the mundane "Dry Firing" @ 15-20 minutes per day. You will not be as proficient as some of the QP's on this site who have fired over a 1000 rounds/week for a lot of weeks & have focused on a target with hostile incoming fire and completed the mission. These skills don't happen naturally nor do you acquire them overnight. It is a long and difficult road to achieve the success that we are desirous of....YOUR THOUGHTS on this post? tom kelly

[Badger52]

Originally Posted by tom kelly

YOUR THOUGHTS on this post? tom kelly

Sir, I think you make some great points as to the journey to even get someone, especially not someone pre-disposed to think in threat terms, to have the resiliency to act at all. It's possible (not probable) that some could volunteer to conduct some type of training tailored to such an environment; or that the marshal idea previously suggested could be tried.

I believe the biggest obstacles to the above will be:

1) abandonment by powers-that-be of the false notion that "just because we wish it to be safe, it will be safe" and, associated with that,

2) telling the teachers' unions to pound sand as soon as someone describes the overt presence of someone with a firearm in a safe gun-free zone (oxymoron intended) as a "hostile work environment."

As tough as it might be, I don't think the toughest nut to crack is training or staffing of willing personnel, even those simply willing to defend "the Alamo" called their classroom. The mental shift has to take place first. May not be cool, but it's an info opns challenge.

[bblhead672]

Originally Posted by tom kelly

Just about everyone who replied to this thread is preaching to the choir..2. Offensive Shooting School/Skills...Paul Howe teaches a course ADVANCED TAC PISTOL/RIFLE OPERATOR... which includes clearing a room in a shoot house. It is very difficult to predict anything;Especially, if it is in the Future. That being said, BEING PROFICIENT at using a weapon for offense and defense requires skill, training, and constant dedication to practice even to the mundane "Dry Firing" @ 15-20 minutes per day. You will not be as proficient as some of the QP's on this site who have fired over a 1000 rounds/week for a lot of weeks & have focused on a target with hostile incoming fire and completed the mission. These skills don't happen naturally nor do you acquire them overnight. It is a long and difficult road to achieve the success that we are desirous of....YOUR THOUGHTS on this post? tom kelly

I agree, no civilian and most ex-military can never reach the shooting and tactical skill levels of our military special operators, regardless of branch. It appears to me that 99% of "tactical" law enforcement officers can't either.

The way I see it, the school shootings happen more frequently because the shooters know they are unlikely to encounter armed resistance. If some teachers, coaches and administrators have received on-going training including high round counts on the range, I think that the potential shooters are going to find a softer target environment. This latest FL shooter either didn't consider the on-campus armed guard a threat or knew he was more of a coward than the shooter.
Yes, not all teachers will or should go offensive on a shooter. The coach in Florida would have been much more effective with a handgun as he moved toward the shooter than to die unarmed.

Obviously, the left (and allies on right) have no interest in protecting children, preventing crime or recognizing that we have the right to self defense, regardless of whether they like it or not.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by bblhead672

I agree, no civilian and most ex-military can never reach the shooting and tactical skill levels of our military special operators

It's more mindset then shooting skills. It's that mindset that I'm going to "run" into that building, place yourself between evil and the innocent and quickly neutralize the shooters.

At all costs and there is no room for failure.

This is not a mindset of civilian LEO, city, state or federal.

You really cannot compare Special Operations and LEO's.

These sort of men are selected for their mindset, not shooting skills. The American LEO's are not.

[Ret10Echo]

Originally Posted by tom kelly

Just about everyone who replied to this thread is preaching to the choir..2. Offensive Shooting School/Skills...Paul Howe teaches a course ADVANCED TAC PISTOL/RIFLE OPERATOR... which includes clearing a room in a shoot house. It is very difficult to predict anything;Especially, if it is in the Future. That being said, BEING PROFICIENT at using a weapon for offense and defense requires skill, training, and constant dedication to practice even to the mundane "Dry Firing" @ 15-20 minutes per day. You will not be as proficient as some of the QP's on this site who have fired over a 1000 rounds/week for a lot of weeks & have focused on a target with hostile incoming fire and completed the mission. These skills don't happen naturally nor do you acquire them overnight. It is a long and difficult road to achieve the success that we are desirous of....YOUR THOUGHTS on this post? tom kelly

Solutions:

Perimeter fencing, with vehicle and pedestrian access control points.

RFID Tagging of buses assigned to schools (with associated access control points) and driver credentials

"Credentials" for students and teachers (Temporary credentials issued for substitute teachers). Credentials are centrally managed where access privileges can be disabled by staff for students suspended or expelled. Students are issued ID's anyhow. Increase their efficiency and use.

Security at vehicular and pedestrian access points

CCTV monitoring for perimeter and access points.

Interior access controls

Metal detectors and screening at entrance to main buildings

Staged access with containment - Enter through exterior doors with secondary barrier doors further into the building.

Plan for limited access points during periods of student movement (Morning arrival, dismissal, class changes, lunch periods)

Interior controls

Upgrade classroom doors to serve as ballistic barriers

Install barricade devices to seal rooms

Implement procedures within schools for alerts and threats with focus on early detection.

Personnel

Exterior and interior security personnel with appropriate offensive engagement tactics

Select staff trained in defensive tactics (student body protection)

Require school districts to hire professional, certified physical security and force protection specialists.


Costs

1st cut would be to go through existing Dept of Education budgets and re purpose funds spent on non-educational social engineering.

2nd Tie school security with Homeland Security spending. It's not just about the border.

3rd Require future plans for school upgrades and new construction to include appropriate security planning

4th Encourage and provide tax credits for security companies to contribute to school upgrades and reinforcement (Much like Apple and Microsoft purchase IT systems for school in order to advertise and obtain tax breaks). This could be physical barriers or staff.

5th. Establish, in coordination with the DoD and VA a program to identify and prepare veterans to transition into school security roles. Consider incentives such as those available to State National Guardsmen for education benefits, etc

This as a start: It will not be a "forklift" approach as this will require a period of time to put in place as there are somewhere around 98,000 public schools in the U.S.

There are holes in the plan, but I spent a whole 12 minutes on it and most of that was the typing. I'm sure for a few million dollars some think tank in NOVA can come up with something.

[CloseDanger]

A Thought on Arming Teachers

[bblhead672]

Originally Posted by Ret10Echo

Solutions:

Perimeter fencing, with vehicle and pedestrian access control points.

RFID Tagging of buses assigned to schools (with associated access control points) and driver credentials

"Credentials" for students and teachers (Temporary credentials issued for substitute teachers). Credentials are centrally managed where access privileges can be disabled by staff for students suspended or expelled. Students are issued ID's anyhow. Increase their efficiency and use.

Security at vehicular and pedestrian access points

CCTV monitoring for perimeter and access points.

Interior access controls

Metal detectors and screening at entrance to main buildings

Staged access with containment - Enter through exterior doors with secondary barrier doors further into the building.

Plan for limited access points during periods of student movement (Morning arrival, dismissal, class changes, lunch periods)

Interior controls

Upgrade classroom doors to serve as ballistic barriers

Install barricade devices to seal rooms

Implement procedures within schools for alerts and threats with focus on early detection.

Personnel

Exterior and interior security personnel with appropriate offensive engagement tactics

Select staff trained in defensive tactics (student body protection)

Require school districts to hire professional, certified physical security and force protection specialists.


Costs

1st cut would be to go through existing Dept of Education budgets and re purpose funds spent on non-educational social engineering.

2nd Tie school security with Homeland Security spending. It's not just about the border.

3rd Require future plans for school upgrades and new construction to include appropriate security planning

4th Encourage and provide tax credits for security companies to contribute to school upgrades and reinforcement (Much like Apple and Microsoft purchase IT systems for school in order to advertise and obtain tax breaks). This could be physical barriers or staff.


This as a start: It will not be a "forklift" approach as this will require a period of time to put in place as there are somewhere around 98,000 public schools in the U.S.

There are holes in the plan, but I spent a whole 12 minutes on it and most of that was the typing. I'm sure for a few million dollars some think tank in NOVA can come up with something.

Excellent ideas. I'd add: "Ban all progressive policies that contribute to lack of identifying and arresting students who commit criminal acts."

[bblhead672]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

It's more mindset then shooting skills. It's that mindset that I'm going to "run" into that building, place yourself between evil and the innocent and quickly neutralize the shooters.

At all costs and there is no room for failure.

This is not a mindset of civilian LEO, city, state or federal.

You really cannot compare Special Operations and LEO's.

These sort of men are selected for their mindset, not shooting skills. The American LEO's are not.

Thank you for that. Warrior mindset.

I hope that should the circumstances ever arise where I am faced with decision to use my guns to protect the lives of my family or others from evil doers that I will have enough of that to act instead of cower behind a car.

[Old Dog New Trick]

Tom, and to that extent all...

I think we are looking for a solution, not a perfect one, but one that will make shooting up your school less appealing to the mentally ill that right now think they are completely unopposed until the police show up. I think that should be the immediate goal of school superintendents across the country.

The message: “Enough, you can no longer come to school with a gun you bought, stole, or took from your father to commit murder of your fellow students!” You will be met by someone, someone you didn’t know or expect, who will not only stand in front of their students to protect them, but someone who will return fire.”

We blame the police and settle lawsuits all time when a cop shoots innocent bystanders. It’s become normal, so why do we automatically expect that a teacher with at least the same training or less is held to a higher standard?

It’s accepted that 99% of police officers will complete an entire career - 20, 30 years and never fire a shot in defense or line of duty.

Based on number of school shootings per number of schools it’s very likely that a teacher will shoot their weapon in defense of students with a lesser degree than winning the Mega Millions Jackpot twice!

People here have mentioned a school program similar to the Air Marshal program. Well, historically and with the exception of Miami, FL., since the inception they have only shot and killed one person. The whole purpose is deterrent! They are there, they will shoot you if you try to hijack an airplane. That’s there purpose.

It’s kind kind of hard to have adult federal agents disguised as a school student (maybe a teacher) but there is already a uniformed SRO.

I could live with a teacher who missed the attacker and killed another student if the teacher could live with their actions. We are all not perfect. Why do we expect perfection from teachers if we can make excuses for everyone else? If the teacher stopped the threat and stopped the unmitigated continuation of murder then they have been a success.

If simply being there and nothing ever happens then we have achieved the desired results.

I don’t want a warrior, I want competence and dedication to teaching and protecting my child after I drop him off for an education.

My kid sees me wear a concealed gun on my hip every day. For work, for going out, for just hanging around doing nothing. I’m armed or have access to firearms 24-hours a day. Why should he or any kid feel fear or afraid because they went to school and all of a sudden they are naked and without some kind of protection afforded to them everywhere else?

Our children have been taught to respect the police and to show respect to their teachers. Even when their actions sometimes disagree with what we teach our kids. Is it not an extension of authority that a teacher has more impact on our children than anyone else other than family? (In some cases more than family, and certainly more than law enforcement - hopefully!)

I would have no problem if even only one or two percent of my kids teachers wanted to carry a gun to work. To take the extra level of responsibility that comes with that decision and hopefully spend a little extra time at the range or taking advanced classes to become proficient. I’d be so happy to pay for that. I’d volunteer my time anytime to help the teachers in my area to become even better.

There is so much experience in the US and so many of us that would make this work. It’s only possible if we try. It’s only possible if we can convince our elected government that what they have been trying is not working it’s time to go back to tried and true programs that work.

JMO

[Box]

I am still not convinced that some of these measures are the real solution.

An effective defense demands active measures. Digging a moat and putting archers in the towers does not prevent the castle from being attacked.

Just like we would send out security and reconnaissance patrols, we have to venture out into the culture to find out why these wayward human beings decide that this is an acceptable way of dealing with life's problems.

Everyone is talking about gun control, mental health, armed educators, higher fences, and even a federal air marshal style guardian wandering the halls like some bizarre world episode of 21-Jumpstreet.


How about some "active patrolling" to combat this threat?
How about we start teaching kids about decency and morality?
How about we decide that it is time for America to stop telling kids that they are entitled to an offense-free lifestyle?
How about we give some thought to why our progeny seem to be so irrationally thin skinned?
How about we just wander out into the darkness and talk to our fucking children?

Almost everything that aMEricans are discussing right now - from sea to shining sea - is about dealing with this type of situation after the shooter has already loaded magazines and crossed the limit of advance.
...better fences to keep the shooter out
...armed educators to engage the shooter
...tougher gun laws to force the shooter to seek alternate means of violence

Hell, we are even starting to hear conversations about having Patrolman Tom Hanson, Sergeant Judy Hoffs, Officer Doug Penhall, and Detective Dennis Booker working the halls at our local metropolis City High School.
To what end?


Nobody is talking about dissecting this kids fucking brain to figure out why in the fuck he thought it was okay to shoot up his school and then stop off for a soda on his way home. Nobody is knee deep in finger pointing trying to figure out how to manage a kid that had 20-30-or more formal incidents over the last few years.
...not to mention numerous documented comments of his schoolmates saying, "everyone knew he would be the one to shoot up the school"

if you see the folks in the neighboring village building catapults and practicing their swordsmanship on an effigy of the King - guess what - they ARE NOT practicing diversity or freedom of speech.
They are getting ready to storm the fucking castle.

We see it - but we don't want to call a kid crazy - that's just so mean.
We don't want to tell someone how to raise their kids...
...well, unless its to make them read "Heather has Two Mommies" - then we are ALL ABOUT telling people how to raise their kids.

Just don't tell someone they are a problem. That shit is unacceptable.
Snowflakes are all special and don't have problems.

Now - we want to decide that humans aren't mature enough to buy firearms at 18 because obviously the only reason an 18 year old buys a firearm is to shoot up the school.
...but 14 year olds are mature enough to seek abortions without parental consent
...10-year olds are mature enough to declare their gender identity
...16-year olds should be allowed to vote because their voice should be heard


Not that anyone will listen, because no one seems to be talking to their children anyway.

[Ret10Echo]

Originally Posted by Box

Nobody is talking about dissecting this kids fucking brain to figure out why in the fuck he thought it was okay to shoot up his school and then stop off for a soda on his way home. Nobody is knee deep in finger pointing trying to figure out how to manage a kid that had 20-30-or more formal incidents over the last few years.
...not to mention numerous documented comments of his schoolmates saying, "everyone knew he would be the one to shoot up the school"

Not that anyone will listen, because no one seems to be talking to their children anyway.

Here ya go: (From Flashback 30 Years thread)

Originally Posted by Ret10Echo

What happened?

My humble opinion:

1. God removed from schools and society (no standard of conduct)

2. Gratuitous violence becomes "entertainment" (movies, board games, video games)

3. Psychotropic drugs being distributed like chicklets (pharmacologically induced violence)

4. Emotional emasculation of the human male (not seeing females doing these things.....). Despondency isolation.

and I'll add

5. Parents who have abdicated their position as parent (Yeah, it takes a village to raise an idiot... or in this case a homicidal sociopath/psychopath). Apparently your iPad is not doing a good job raising your child, but I guess it gives you more free time to Fakebook.


and the finale'
- F-A-M-E baby..... The social-media "like" culture ignores me and makes me "feel" bad so I'll make myself important. Watch this....

[tonyz]

All valid points made and spot on.

Concur that this is a cultural problem of epidemic proportions - and this must be acknowledged and addressed by leadership.

The good folks on this site recognize that it is much easier for the left to blame a weapon, ban it and move on.

Passing a feel good law is so much easier than cultural self reflection. Here’s the model for failure:

First ban AR’s.
Next shooting is with semi-auto rifle not an AR...ban all semi-auto rifles.
Next shooting involves semi-auto pistols...ban all semi auto pistols.
Next shooting involves shotguns...ban all shotguns.
Next shooting involves revolvers...you see where this is going.
Then, the next shooter is 22 years old not 21...
Schools harden and lose favor, then malls, then public squares, then voting places, etc., etc., etc.,

Then, a big ass fertizler bomb goes off or a water supply is poisoned, or worse...thousands dead and more injured...and the left pats themselves on the back...at least it wasn’t an AR...they are deniers and fools.

Our culture must reflect and address root causes and not symptoms...until then disarming law abiding and mentally stable citizens does nothing to truly address the problems we face today.