Point Shooting - Page 5

**Roguish Lawyer** · 06-19-2004, 12:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
I'm going to go out on a limb here, a really big strong limb. I believe that Col. Rex Applegate would enjoy the hell out of this thread. I know he was always looking for a better way to use a handgun. His interest in this came from personal experience. NDD is exactly correct about why Col. Applegate taught point shooting. The reason Col Applegate took his point shooting and turned it towards law enforcement is that cops were getting their ass kicked in close quarter gun fights across the nation. In Col. Applegates own words to me, "There are always the gun nuts in a police department, these are the guys who take a great interest in training to shoot and learning about firearms. Many other cops recieve poor training and can't shoot under stress, this is shown in the incident reports in many big police agencies across the United States." Cops were losing too many gunfights for the Col.s taste so he decided to turn what he knew about shooting towards law enforcement. This was a late development in his life, I know this because, at Col. Applegates request I re-did his WW2 drawings of point shooting from soldier to cop for publication in the police magazines.

Sounds kind of like CPR training for laymen. You know they'll probably screw it up, but at least try to get them to do something useful when an emergency happens. Better than nothing.

**Roguish Lawyer** · 06-19-2004, 12:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Razor
TR, close, but I'd prefer the background to be a Paulaner dunkel weizen.

I like the Salvator, personally.

**Roguish Lawyer** · 06-19-2004, 12:53

Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper
Let's see, for you, my brother, I have assorted cans of Coors Light, bottles of Bud, Yuengling Light, Yuengling Black and Tan, Dundee Honey Brown, Warsteiner, and of course, Guinness.

All cold and waiting.

Got some fine whiskey here as well, if you ever get back up this way.

I think AM and Bill can vouch for the quality of the potables here.

The 10th Group guys can stop by the store on the way and get whatever exotic crap they want.

TR

TR's home sounds like a cache of great gear and beer, among other things.

NousDefionsDoc · 06-19-2004, 19:48

I have the video of the original OSS movie made at the training ground. Quite a good piece on point shooting. Not like layman CPR at all.

**Bill Harsey** · 06-19-2004, 20:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Sounds kind of like CPR training for laymen. You know they'll probably screw it up, but at least try to get them to do something useful when an emergency happens. Better than nothing.

RL, I've seen some of the training films from the OSS days because Col. Applegate told me to sit down and pay attention while he played them The one that sticks in my mind is that of point shooting being done with trainee using a .45 auto firing tracers. This was impressive because while the shooter was moving and engaging targets as directed by the instructor, we can watch the tracers bore into target after target at a good rate of speed. This was not beginning shooting.

**Bill Harsey** · 06-19-2004, 20:29

I look at the WW2 era as an important step on the evolutionary chart of shooting. Knifemakers are about third from the left on the other one.

**Razor** · 06-19-2004, 20:36

Quote:

Originally posted by The Reaper
I am sure that you can find the Class VI Store.
TR

Actually, that's where I get my fix nowadays.

Sorry, I admit that I'm a bit of a beer snob, but after living a while where they've been brewing for over a thousand years and have it pretty much figured out, I got spoiled.

**Bill Harsey** · 06-20-2004, 09:43

I just put two seperate pieces of information together. One of the things Rex Applegate taught was to face the target (threat) head on and look where you want the bullet to go, raise the handgun to eye level and shoot when the gun reaches the target. I just remembered a statistic that my longtime knifemaking student and friend quoted me (long time cop, swat team leader, tested gunfighter), He said that in close up shoots that the cops often missed while bad guys shot the cop in the face because that's exactly where they were looking. The advantage of using police statistics is that No. 1, they get in shooting situations. No. 2 the incident reports are public knowledge which means we can study and quote them. QUESTION- When you guys are trained well enough to be good at flash front sight, doesn't it just become shoot where you look?

NousDefionsDoc · 06-20-2004, 10:00

Interesting and very relevant I think. We have to be careful, as we're getting close to the line - but you see this very often in students. When they first get over the fear of the weapon and actually start shooting, they will often hit the part of the anatomy that they were instructed to check first. In addition, there are numerous stories of weapons being shot out of the bad guy's grasp. This isn't good shooting, its shooting where you are looking and being more than a little lucky.

**Bill Harsey** · 06-20-2004, 10:06

I wasn't trying to in any way demean Flash Front Sight. I'd just had a thought...

NousDefionsDoc · 06-20-2004, 10:08

LOL - and a good thought it was. I mean the OPSEC line.

**Bill Harsey** · 06-20-2004, 10:13

Got it.

mffjm8509 · 06-20-2004, 10:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
IQUESTION- When you guys are trained well enough to be good at flash front sight, doesn't it just become shoot where you look?

I dont think thats good enough for offensive combat.

To elaborate on what NDD has already said, we are of course trained to check the hands prior to engaging, but if one is fixed there and not trained to focus on the front sight on the desired point of impact, he will shoot the bad guys hands.......thus leaving a still very alive threat in the fight.

From my own experience I can say that when I've engaged targets, and dont physically remember seeing front sight, my shots are not where I would have liked them to be. So in every AAR of a shoothouse, stress fire, or Critical Task Evaluation, I always inquire about what the shooter remembers seeing. Most of the time, they dont remember the front sight, (as is the case with most real police gunfights). To me this means we spend more time on the range workign fundamentals...

just my .02

mp

**Team Sergeant** · 06-20-2004, 10:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
I wasn't trying to in any way demean Flash Front Sight. I'd just had a thought...

You won't.

There lies a world of difference between defensive and offensive shooting. The same goes for the mindset involved.

NousDefionsDoc · 06-20-2004, 10:19

Quote:

Originally posted by mffjm8509
I dont think thats good enough for offensive combat.

To elaborate on what NDD has already said, we are of course trained to check the hands prior to engaging, but if one is fixed there and not trained to focus on the front sight on the desired point of impact, he will shoot the bad guys hands.......thus leaving a still very alive threat in the fight.

From my own experience I can say that when I've engaged targets, and dont physically remember seeing front sight, my shots are not where I would have liked them to be. So in every AAR of a shoothouse, stress fire, or Critical Task Evaluation, I always inquire about what the shooter remembers seeing. Most of the time, they dont remember the front sight, (as is the case with most real police gunfights). To me this means we spend more time on the range workign fundamentals...

just my .02

mp

Excellent post! I even chant it under my breath when I'm working. Little whisper to the CQB Dieties - "Front site, front site, front site - BLAM!" LOL. Good rythm aid for a white boy that can't salsa too.