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Old 10-18-2005, 13:31   #16
Peregrino
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VM - Death squads are what your suggestions inevitably lead to. They are most assuredly not the answer. Vigilantes are a genie best left in the bottle. At best they are a stopgap until the government is strong and secure enough that the people no longer feel a need to deliver justice personally. As it is, "Frontier (vigilante) Justice" will probably be the (an) inevitable outcome of the current internal instability in Iraq (notice I do not call it an insurgeny - words are powerful tools, why bestow legitimacy with a respectable label?). It is also solely the job of the Iraqi people. The US cannot in any way be seen to participate in or condone the actions of individuals or groups seeking extra-legal justice.

Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. I spent enough time in El Sal plus a couple trips to Colombia to agree with most of Eva's version of morality. What you suggest is an attractive sounding, expedient (read - "feel good") solution but it simply perpetuates the age-old cycles of violence. The French tried your model during the first "Battle for Algiers". Despite initial successes the long term damage caused by the methods used eventualy cost the war and resulted in a change of government in France. We experimented with our own version with the Phoenix Project during RVN. It too had initial tactical successes that were more than offset by the stratigic losses suffered when the program was exposed to the American people. We need a solution that will work over the long term that doesn't compromise our principles.

The foreign terrorists are actually a small part of the problem. Their influence is distorted far beyond their actual combat power by public perceptions of their bombing campaign. Excluding the imported terrorists - and even if the US withdrew tomorrow - there would still be an insurgency in Iraq. The critical population is the Sunni minority. That's why they are fighting so hard to foment civil war and prevent anything resembling federalism in whatever future Iraq has. They stand to lose everything. The Sunnis have no apparent incentive to cooperate in the creation of a new state. They understand their vulnerability and fully expect to have to "pay the piper" now that their minority has been stripped of the power it amassed under the previous regime. They also understand and dread the consequences of the last 40 years (plus the previous 1300 years of Sunni/Shia religious infighting) better than ANY American ever will. Somehow somebody has to figure out how to overcome these obstacles and include (incent - thanks FS) the Sunnis to participate in a new Iraq. Then we can solve the rest of the problem. The only way to create a stable, progressive society (notice - I did not say democratic though I hope that is what happens) is to establish the "rule of law" and use RICO style police intelligence work to attack and dismantel terrorist infrastructure and special ops DA types to target the terrorists themselves.


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Old 10-18-2005, 14:35   #17
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Originally Posted by VelociMorte
If you cut off the head, ie. the Financiers, the madrassas with their hate-preaching clerics, the bomb-makers, the supportive village elder, the border-crossing guard who takes bribes to look the other way, the forger....everyone who makes up a terrorist cell or network and everyone who supports them, then the snake will die.
I have second thoughts about the long term viability of cutting off the head and letting the snake die. I think you have to pound it repeatedly after the head is off. Even then, the idea may remain.

But that's not what I was going to say. If we manage to bring democracy to the Middle East, if they manage to get an economy going that can support them as the world gradually lessens their dependancy on oil, I wonder if the lack of leadership in Islam can work to our advantage? Can it be so that these instigators become relics of a past time, without credibility to arise their fellow men's anger? As have been said, the culture has to evolve and they have to go through tough times without targetting the outside to manage their internal instability. They have to accept individual and then collective responsibility.

I think that one of the most important aspects of freedom is a part of freedom's very definition. The freedom to choose a religion and belief. I also think it's one of its biggest achilles heals, only made insignificant by the people and respect for the rule of law. I think that a society whose values become watered down and too intellectual lose a part of what makes it human. I think that's where moral relativity enters and I think that's, partly, why Christianity has made progress in China.

Whether or not there is a God, there still appears to be an innate place inside many for something outside of you, untouchable, yet very close and larger than yourself. Actually, if not before, then when the clouds are gathering, it is a comforting thought to have the power of supreme love and justice behind you, in you. To continue fighting for the well-being of a thousand worlds is a bit more motivating than your own current miserability.

So I don't think democracy and freedom is going to remove religion and I don't think it should, or can. There'll always be people believing. Could be that they are not of faith for the common good, but perhaps because they can find no other way of establishing their moral rules, or because they're weak. Either way, that will remain a pool of willing for the seekers of power.

We need some values to live up to, and role models, good stories, violence and love.

Martin

EDIT:
PS. During measurements of brain activity during heavy-duty prayer, there is a specific place in the back of the head that becomes active - especially during nirvana and such. So if you've ever wondered where God's at...

Last edited by Martin; 10-18-2005 at 14:42. Reason: Added PS.
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Old 10-18-2005, 15:18   #18
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VM,

I think I've said my piece on this matter, but I wanted to respond to a few points...

Quote:
Originally Posted by VelociMorte
Eva, there are a few recent successful examples of where this strategy works: The North Vietnamese and VC, the Khmer Rouge, and Los PEPES in Columbia.
I could be mistaken but the VC and the Khmer Rouge were both "insurgent/revolutionary" groups that prevailed against US backed governments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VelociMorte
Terrorist cells all have certain needs, regardless of their ideology...Fund terrorists, get a bullet in the head.
In Robert Baer's book "Sleeping with the Devil" and in Steven Emerson's book "The American House of Saud" both authors detail how US politicians have been responsible for a tremendous amount of funding to be passed to fundamentalist organizations with ties to terror groups.

Apparently Emerson's book was so on the money, he had a hit put out on him by some of the groups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VelociMorte
Organization: Believe it or not, no matter how charitable, kind, and helpful we are, some people will always hate us...and sends them forth from the nest. A bullet in the head for each of them. Eva, you cannot reason with someone who finds it acceptable, and even desirable to kill as many innocent people as possible...The only way to stop them is to kill them first.
I think this characterization of our enemy seems very shallow. I think that Islam is a complex religion and like all religions, there are some fundamentalist types who bask in the strict rules that they can live their lives by.

I do not deny that there are some sinister people populating our world, but there are many others who see themselves not as evil but as soldiers. Whether or not we regard them in this manner makes no difference to them. Their leaders demonize us with shallow generalization backed by religious doctrine...much as I feel our leaders have presented the enemy to the general population. People everywhere want things to be simple. This is our enemy, they are evil, the end.

I believe our enemy is sophisticated and intelligent. Their strategies time proven to succeed. We must be smarter than them. We must not become clouded with hatred and distracted by revenge. Building a nation with histories of violence such as Iraq and Afghanistan is not an easy task and cannot be simply reduced to a tagline.

We need to build. We need to give them hope. We need to educate them and help them get jobs. In short, we need to help them build their own country. We need the people to know we are there to help and then leave. If America can do this, it will take the sting out of every venomous charge these mullah's and the like make about our country and countrymen.

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Old 10-18-2005, 17:02   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva05
I could be mistaken but the VC and the Khmer Rouge were both "insurgent/revolutionary" groups that prevailed against US backed governments.
You are mistaken. The VC were effectively eliminated as a fighting force in Tet 1968.

The war was won by a conventional NV Army attack against the forces of South Vietnam.

Was the KR finally victorious against a US backed government, or against a later regime?

TR
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Old 12-25-2005, 22:32   #20
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Resources

Perhaps the following from the War College would be of interest to those engaged in the present conversation?

The Struggle Against Extremist Ideology

Peace and Stability Education Workshop

Addressing the Conditions that Foster Terrorism
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Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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Old 12-31-2005, 16:19   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
You are mistaken. The VC were effectively eliminated as a fighting force in Tet 1968.

The war was won by a conventional NV Army attack against the forces of South Vietnam.

Was the KR finally victorious against a US backed government, or against a later regime?

TR
Eva, The Reaper is 100%. the KR and VC winning is part of propaganda out there. A deal was struck with the Soviet that NVN and SVN would fight it out unsupported. The USA kept it's bargan, The Soviets and China did not, dispite SVN not having USA support it still took about 3yrs for NVN to defeat them. Does not really say much for NVN, with all the Communist support and SVN having no support, it took them(NVN-Bac Nam) that long. The Nixon China documents are now released and you can read them. Contrary to popular myths, the USA is good at keeping it's agreements. As with the Gulf War, not to go in and take Saddam out, the USA agreed to that stipulation as part of the forming the Gulf War Coalition. The critics are still blamming the USA for not doing it in the Gulf War, and then they yell about the USA not keeping it's agreements. Interesting the contradiction in their lies about the US. Personnally there is NO news in the US media, mostly entertainment and Hollywood BS.
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Old 11-16-2006, 07:27   #22
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The one thing I have noticed about alot of muslims in Malaysia and Indonesia is that its the crusades all over again and they have this "us vs them" mentality.

You can argue with them about logical explanations on anything under the sun..they just refuse to accept these terrorists (the same idiots who kill other muslims) are evil and what they are doing is justified (the insurgency in Iraq, Palestine and the recent Lebanon war where a number of Isreali army regulars were kidnapped in a cross border raid which led to the 30 something day war.)

Its very very fustrating trying to make any sense of any logical answers they give. And I find more and more muslims are thinking this way. Very radical way of thinking I must say.
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Old 11-17-2006, 06:21   #23
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Originally Posted by VelociMorte
Eva, there are a few recent successful examples of where this strategy works: The North Vietnamese and VC, the Khmer Rouge, and Los PEPES in Columbia.
You've lost me.

The VC pretty much ceased to exist because the NVA sacrificed them intentionally during Tet '68.

The Khymer Rouge for the most part are still alive. Dying of old age, not bullets to the head.

I don't know about Los PEPES, but NDD seems to have already addressed that.
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Old 11-17-2006, 18:13   #24
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Smile Open Source War

N

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Old 11-18-2006, 06:18   #25
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Los PEPES were not insurgents, the were criminals/vigilantes - depending on your point of view.
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Old 02-17-2007, 11:06   #26
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Again late

I am reading this and wanting to reply but I am going to have to preface this by admitting that 1. I am severely outmatched in my resources, specifically quoting sources and 2. I am still cutting my teeth in the community. But I do still have some nagging thoughts about this discussion. Everything here is IMO.

Some have argued for a change in the tactical execution of targets, specifically the type of "justice" that is brought to them and their obvious associates. This is the new, Long War, lets talk strategically since everyone here is talking about the longterm effects of short term actions. Brute force against an open opponent is often met with little resistance, in the case of US forces, just like two bodies of water colliding; that force is merely redistributed and redirected elsewhere. Defeat the army, disband them giving them motivation, and then sit back and hope that they all peacefully rejoin under the people that just stripped them of the only respectable job they have ever had in their life. No, their force and inertia had already shifted, united under an established COC with elements of influential terrorist organizations and religious overtones, to wards alternate means.

The only example, in recent history that I can equate this use of force to is WWII. Not only were we at war with two populations which were brainwashed but we were fighting it on two fronts. The end result was that open war was declared and entire cities, men, women and children were decimated. Firebombing was the standard and terror was imposed on every population at all times. These however were educated and developed industrial countries which had seen prosperity in recent memory. The enemy then are now two fully functioning 1st world nations. What if the only thing that these countries had ever known was that they were always living in the equivalent of bombed out buildings. Men, women and children's lives held no value, like the buildings which they lived in. Where would war take them then...further into the depths of depravity. Where is their contrast between right and wrong; between the benefits of being a prosperous world member and merely maintaining the status quo? Do any of the Iraqis remember? Afghanis? Definitely not. Granted Iraq was a fairly advanced country relative to its neighbors, could that be used as an argument to negate this point? No.

I mentioned my limited resource gathering before I wrote this so bear with me. In SERE school we watched a video detailing a downed pilot in Vietnam. A particularly vicious NV interrogator forewent his normal brutal sessions to tell one of the captive US Service members that he was their greatest weapon. Going further by saying that with him and his fellow captives the NV would attack the US and win the war in the streets of NY and D.C. The couldn't defeat us in open combat but they knew that the established pattern dictated that the US population could not stand the "Long War." Doesn't that seem, to anyone else, to be the same situation here. The problem is not whether the insurgents are winning. They believe, as a result of the lack of education of the two populations, that they are winning. Until we convince them otherwise and take that hope of eventual victory, they will continue to fight. They have nothing else.

That is the best recruiting slogan of all. Sure we might capture 1000 to 3000 insurgents a month. How many are truly taken out of the fight? If they are detained, how many use that mere detention as the motivation to strike back and join the insurgency? Give me figures on that and that might give you an idea why this insurgency might not be growing but it sure doesn't seem to be decreasing dramatically.

If I knew nothing of physics, as most did at the high point of catholicism, why not search for answers in the controlling power of a god. Most Muslims live this by saying "en sha allah." God willing. They think that he will assert himself in every minute detail of everyday existence. Does God make the pen fall from the table? Does he dictate where the bullet will go or is that based on the sight picture and proper trigger squeeze? In Yemen (my most current operational experience) the educated soldiers had grasped this concept fully, the other had not. They regularly referred to them as the most likely to go and fight against us in theater. These were the locals saying this openly. Following religion is an alternative to a "good" life. Its not even thought of as taboo as dropping out of high school to pursue a life of drug dealing in America. Simply because it produces a product that everyone can relate to: Simplicity and direction without the application of critical thinking to solve life's troubles. Make it simple and keep the people stupid. Hell, when was the last time you read an army manual written above the Th grade reading level? (thats a bad example but tell me you see my point)

From all this I gather that killing them isn't merely enough. Not even outright destruction, as satisfying as it may be. Educating them that life isn't determined solely on faith in a higher power will surely help but that comes with generations of learning and teaching. Just as the fall of most religions has, historically coincided with the introduction of new sciences and a new religion which accepted this new science. Education will lead to a greater understanding within their population, disconnecting religion with daily life, and fostering a forward looking perspective based on successful nation building. Rhetoric and propaganda feeds on that lack of education. No one wants their suicide bomber looking forward to clean streets and running water and power. That is Enemy Number 2. Enemy Number 1 is their inherent feeling of hope. We cry for a pullout and they praise the people who follow that calling. We aren't going to overtly beat Enemy Number 1 but I pray that we beat Enemy Number 2 then hopefully history will show that Iraq and Afghanistan can become leading 1st world industrial economies although they never recognize our contribution.
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Old 02-18-2007, 00:31   #27
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If we manage to bring democracy to the Middle East...
One of the keystone principals of democracy is the freedom of speech or expression. Is it possible to have freedom of speech without freedom of religion? Is it possible to establish a democracy in a middle-eastern country where the ability to discuss Christianity or other religions other then Islam is not tolerated? Sounds like a long shot to me. just my 2 cents.

Related to the other issues, it seems we cannot descredit the ideology that fuels many of the insurgents because Isalm is a schizophrenic religion; simultaneously advocating peace and violence. Therefore we must discredit the leaders. We must use any and every means to show their leaders in a bad light. They seem to have a prospensity for luxury while their followers wallow in poverty. They seem to be cowards advocating others to blow themselves up for the cause while they cower safely in the rear. Every time one of the these POS violates any law of Islam, it needs to be front page news. We need to attack these guys where they are the weakest.

At the same time, if we can boost their economy and provide some light at the end of the tunnel we may provide hope for the little folks. We need to be tenacious in rooting out the hard core extremist and show no mercy to the foreign fighters, and these foreign fighters need to fall under a different set of ROE when they are caught. They should be immediately executed. We need to punish any Iranians caught in country with extreme prejudice. The government of Iran needs to be held accountable for any Iranians involved in insurgency whether or not we can prove their government had knowlege of their actions. For every Iranian fighter or weapons found, we need to kill 20 or more Iranian republican guard until they stay the F out of Iraq.

We need to get the paper pushers out of the battle and turn the dogs loose on the bad guys, and I believe that is what we are trying to do. However, congress and the senate may have different ideas and from what I hear from the front lines I'm not so sure our military leadership understands it either.

Recently I heard of a soldier in Iraq who was fired upon by an insurgent. The soldier returned fire killing the insurgent and wounding another. He was then required to accompany the severly wounded insurgent back to the hospital where he was admonished for not filling out the proper paperwork! The freaking paper pushers need to get the F out of Iraq! This soldier then was required to spend the next 48 hours watching over the wounded insurgent, who was in ICU, in case the insurgent tried to escape. Escape? It seems to me the two concepts are mutually exclusive: ICU and escape.

My son recently was providing overwatch from the top of a hotel for some troops kicking doors below. He spotted a haji with a cell phone and binoculars but was denied permission to engage. If the political environment in country is so charged that an officer is so afraid of being second guessed that permission to kill the enemy is not readily given, we need to change that right now, and in no uncertain terms. If the Iraqi leadership does not like it then they can go pound sand as far as I'm concerned. Either you want our help or you don't.

I hope the new commander in Iraq straightens out these situations in a most ricky tick fashion otherwise the more intricate missions and objectives don't have a prayer of being successful or achieved.
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Old 02-18-2007, 06:56   #28
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Originally Posted by dennisw
One of the keystone principals of democracy is the freedom of speech or expression. Is it possible to have freedom of speech without freedom of religion? Is it possible to establish a democracy in a middle-eastern country where the ability to discuss Christianity or other religions other then Islam is not tolerated? Sounds like a long shot to me. just my 2 cents..............
I will agree that democracy as WE know it could not exist in the Middle East. it would have to be changed and modified to meet the needs of the muslim faith.

I will disagree with your statement that discussion of Christianity and other religions is not tolerated. It may be true for the 'orthodox' types like the Wahabbists from Saudi Arabia, but they're not the majority. Islam at it's core is a very tolerant religion. In fact it says to embrace other believers in 'God" no matter what religion that particular God belongs to because they're all the same 'God'. How is it that in other countries over there (including Iraq before 2003) that Muslims and Christians could live side by side without and problems? Look at Egypt. Heck, in 2003 nobody I met in Iraq cared about the beliefs of the neighbors. (As long as they weren't Jewish of course...) There was one neighborhood where the one street had Sunnis and Shias AND Christians all living together. Not a single problem.

Makes ya wonder how we got to this point...

As far as "releasing the dogs" I tend to disagree. We need a new strategy, that's for sure, but you can't just go over there and beat everyone down. It may work at first, but it's a downward spiral. It may start with sticking it to the verified 'insurgents' but where does it stop? What happens when people come to us and tell us that their neighbor is an insurgent (which happens a lot) because they're mad they have more sheep then them?

Like I told someone the past week, just because carpet bombing worked in WW2, doesn't mean it'll work again.
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Old 02-18-2007, 08:31   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwt5
I will disagree with your statement that discussion of Christianity and other religions is not tolerated. It may be true for the 'orthodox' types like the Wahabbists from Saudi Arabia, but they're not the majority. Islam at it's core is a very tolerant religion. In fact it says to embrace other believers in 'God" no matter what religion that particular God belongs to because they're all the same 'God'. How is it that in other countries over there (including Iraq before 2003) that Muslims and Christians could live side by side without and problems? Look at Egypt. Heck, in 2003 nobody I met in Iraq cared about the beliefs of the neighbors. (As long as they weren't Jewish of course...) There was one neighborhood where the one street had Sunnis and Shias AND Christians all living together. Not a single problem.

Makes ya wonder how we got to this point...
I'd like to know what you've been reading......

we can live besides rattlesnakes without problems also. Why do you think that is?

islam sure is tolerant, it tolerates radical beheadings, honor killing of ones own family members, unprovoked terrorist attacks against just about everyone to include themselves.

imans in major middle eastern universities and throughout the world preaching hate.

the tolerence of using their young as bombs to send a message.

I could go on for days.....

It's not the people I hold no tolerence for, just islam and its teachings.

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Old 02-18-2007, 09:01   #30
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jwt:

I hate to dogpile, but I have to agree with the TS on this one.

Islam has to be the least tolerant religion on the planet, and it has been for a long time. You need to refer back to the Koran where it states that non-believers must be converted at the point of the sword.

In case you forgot, US personnel in Islamic countries over the years have been subject to serious restrictions on their personal and religious freedom.

I do not see too many other religions convincing their people to blow themselves up in order to kill non-believers.

Christians in the Arab countries have largely been discriminated against and tolerated only as long as they were invisible. I can only think of a few exceptions.

TR
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