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Old 05-26-2012, 04:37   #46
PedOncoDoc
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Originally Posted by Stras View Post
I'm sure someone will tell the family the real deal about what happened. then look for lawsuits from the parents against DoD for putting their sons in a hazardous situation without valid safety measures.
And the family will be demonized in the media as having an agenda against women.
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Old 05-26-2012, 05:28   #47
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I have been instructing basic pistol for the last year or so for folks to get their concealed weapons permits. About 75% of my students have been women. They outperform the men on the shooting examination every class. They listen, with less ego.

I had one of the ROTC tours for 3.5 years. Other than the typical males that you just knew were going to go Infantry Officer. The best two cadets I had were female. Both were nurses, attractive, ran marathons, consistently scored in the mid 60's on push ups repetitions. Their heads were set straight.

My daughter is in maintenance, a welder in the NG. She is 5'9 and was a high school wrestler and won her Base female combative's tournament.

I am not looking forward for the line Infantry to have intermixed females. It just wont work. There may be females out there that can hack it. But the sheer increase in bull shit to get to a point that we end up with a few per platoon that can hack it will in my opinion takes decades and reduce combat effectiveness overall.

I would probably look to the military police platoons with integrated females that have been operating outside the wire the most. How many pregnancies, how much drama that is not reported by the command, etc.

I do see some places women are a force multiplier downrange. They aid dramatically in house clearing when dealing with muslim females. But running down the streets daily with the normal combat load worn by grunts... Hell, there are grunts that get their ass kicked by the load over time.

Mental aspect. I would be curious how the mental health of the women that have served in the ugliest of areas are. The mental health of a good portion of the male side of this coin is a known issue for the military.

There is a reason we did not see too many full plate armored women in the days of old. Maybe if they wear that exoskeleton contraption.

I just reread this post, I think I just rambled for 15 minutes. Anyways, I will post it. We all have an opinion, in the end someone will make a decision based on political points or careerism and a future gig as a NOW spokesman er or is it spokeswoman.

I will just keep training my daughters and wife to shoot fast, accurate and at as far a distance as they can identify the threat.
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Old 05-26-2012, 05:53   #48
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She is 5'9 and was a high school wrestler and won her Base female combative's tournament.
Therein lies the rub. How do you think she would have performed in a men's (or gender open) combative tournament?

No one is devaluing the contibutions of women in the military - the major arugment I am seeing is that there are scientifically established, physiologic differences between men and women that make males easier to train as combat troops to a minimum standard with regards to issues of strength and endurance for their safety and the safety of those with whom they serve.
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Old 05-26-2012, 06:19   #49
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She has beaten men in high school wrestling, but she losses 95% against them. And that is why I teach the women in my family to shoot.
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Old 05-26-2012, 10:48   #50
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Can they handle this?.........

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Old 05-26-2012, 11:54   #51
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Does it need to be "stack of females"?

What if no female dies because stacks of males got hurt, died, got stressed, got PTSD, or left the service trying to ensure "she" lived? Who will keep and report those stats?
Would you mind clarifying that premise? I can't figure that one out.
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Old 05-26-2012, 12:45   #52
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Would you mind clarifying that premise? I can't figure that one out.
Let's say the female is a great performer in some aspects, and gets assigned to an elite unit....Rangers, SF, whatever. Let's say, best case, she is low maintenance/low drama and keeps her head down and does her job.

Her team/unit is off on deployment, doing work that is difficult and draining physically....maybe because they are in a remote location, or because they are humping heavy loads, or they are getting little sleep because they are constantly under attack, or because they are mentally/emotionally drained dealing with incompetent local forces.

She is doing her best, and she's not complaining, but is falling behind on her duties. The men are filling in around her, which is further draining them and they resent it. The violence of the attack against them escalates, some are hurt, and she is needed to help in the exfil. The men, attempting to protect her or take some of her load, are injured or killed. Who keeps stats on "Unnecessary Deaths Due to Weak Female"?

And that is a best case scenario....instead, there will more than likely be drama. The guys will be fighting over her, or she will be playing them against one another, or they be distracted trying to deal with her and not focused enough on the mission at hand, which can cause injury, death to some, and severe resentment to others, to the point they leave the unit or retire out of the service altogether. I'm not even touching what happens if she gets pregnant. Who keeps stats on "Unnecessary Death or Dismemberment Due to Female Drama" or "Unnecessary Retirement of Great Soldiers Due to Female Drama"?

Or let's say she's aging. She managed to qualify for an elite unit under the toughest standards at the age of 25. She is an unusual physical specimen in outstanding shape. How long can she maintain it? You guys can do more than us even if you age, gain fat and lose cardio shape. How much time will she actually have at her peak? 2-3 years? Then as she starts to decline, how many men will get caught up in pulling her weight? Even if she doesn't get herself killed, how many others suffer the consequences? Who keeps stats on "Unnecessary Death Due to Female Strength Decline"?

Or let's say she's a mom with a young baby at home. Will guys put their lives at unnecessary risk trying to make sure that a mom lives? How many will be physically or mentally scarred trying to ensure it? Who keeps stats on "Unnecessary Death Due to Chivalry"?

Take that and multiple it out across the elite Special Operations forces.

Dusty, those were my thoughts as a civilian. It sounds like many of you have strong wives, daughters, mothers or sisters. Strong women are inspirational to me. That is not the point. Putting otherwise strong women into a ground-based, elite fighting force when our numbers of volunteer men don't require it, and our mission doesn't require it, is astounding to me. Even if the females don't die in stacks, how many men are sacrificed to ensure we can implement someone's political agenda. No one will track that.
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Old 05-26-2012, 15:24   #53
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Originally Posted by orion5 View Post
Let's say the female is a great performer in some aspects, and gets assigned to an elite unit....Rangers, SF, whatever. Let's say, best case, she is low maintenance/low drama and keeps her head down and does her job.

Her team/unit is off on deployment, doing work that is difficult and draining physically....maybe because they are in a remote location, or because they are humping heavy loads, or they are getting little sleep because they are constantly under attack, or because they are mentally/emotionally drained dealing with incompetent local forces.

She is doing her best, and she's not complaining, but is falling behind on her duties. The men are filling in around her, which is further draining them and they resent it. The violence of the attack against them escalates, some are hurt, and she is needed to help in the exfil. The men, attempting to protect her or take some of her load, are injured or killed. Who keeps stats on "Unnecessary Deaths Due to Weak Female"?

And that is a best case scenario....instead, there will more than likely be drama. The guys will be fighting over her, or she will be playing them against one another, or they be distracted trying to deal with her and not focused enough on the mission at hand, which can cause injury, death to some, and severe resentment to others, to the point they leave the unit or retire out of the service altogether. I'm not even touching what happens if she gets pregnant. Who keeps stats on "Unnecessary Death or Dismemberment Due to Female Drama" or "Unnecessary Retirement of Great Soldiers Due to Female Drama"?

Or let's say she's aging. She managed to qualify for an elite unit under the toughest standards at the age of 25. She is an unusual physical specimen in outstanding shape. How long can she maintain it? You guys can do more than us even if you age, gain fat and lose cardio shape. How much time will she actually have at her peak? 2-3 years? Then as she starts to decline, how many men will get caught up in pulling her weight? Even if she doesn't get herself killed, how many others suffer the consequences? Who keeps stats on "Unnecessary Death Due to Female Strength Decline"?

Or let's say she's a mom with a young baby at home. Will guys put their lives at unnecessary risk trying to make sure that a mom lives? How many will be physically or mentally scarred trying to ensure it? Who keeps stats on "Unnecessary Death Due to Chivalry"?

Take that and multiple it out across the elite Special Operations forces.

Dusty, those were my thoughts as a civilian. It sounds like many of you have strong wives, daughters, mothers or sisters. Strong women are inspirational to me. That is not the point. Putting otherwise strong women into a ground-based, elite fighting force when our numbers of volunteer men don't require it, and our mission doesn't require it, is astounding to me. Even if the females don't die in stacks, how many men are sacrificed to ensure we can implement someone's political agenda. No one will track that.
I see what you're saying.

Good point.
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Old 05-27-2012, 10:27   #54
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Believe this.........

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I believe that SF is a 'calling' - not too different from the calling missionaries I know received. I knew instantly that it was for me, and that I would do all I could to achieve it. Most others I know in SF experienced something similar. If, as you say, you HAVE searched and read, and you do not KNOW if this is the path for you --- it is not....
Zonie Diver

SF is a calling and it requires commitment and dedication that the uninitiated will never understand......
Jack Moroney

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Old 05-27-2012, 10:44   #55
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Perhaps men should sue the DoD. Women are allowed to perform far fewer pushups and run vastly slower than men, and receive the same scores. If all gender restrictions are lifted due to equal performance, then how on earth can the DoD justify two separate standards for the genders? Especially in co-ed career fields with tight competition for promotion.

If women can serve in every aspect of the military, how long until some man or group of men sue for discrimination with regard to the Selective Service? After all, how can the US Government take a pool of equally qualified citizens and only require that certain genders / races / religions be conscripted to defend the nation? Is this not discrimination? Why should my 18 year old son be forced into service to fight along side women who are there only if they want to be?
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:22   #56
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She has beaten men in high school wrestling, but she losses 95% against them. And that is why I teach the women in my family to shoot.
So, she can shoot, weld, and wrestle? Forgive me for saying so, but that's awesome!
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Old 05-27-2012, 14:09   #57
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http://thesoldiersload.com/2012/05/2...-the-infantry/

Interesting article on why women DON'T belong in the infantry........

Big Teddy
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I believe that SF is a 'calling' - not too different from the calling missionaries I know received. I knew instantly that it was for me, and that I would do all I could to achieve it. Most others I know in SF experienced something similar. If, as you say, you HAVE searched and read, and you do not KNOW if this is the path for you --- it is not....
Zonie Diver

SF is a calling and it requires commitment and dedication that the uninitiated will never understand......
Jack Moroney

SFA M-2527, Chapter XXXVII
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Old 05-27-2012, 14:22   #58
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Originally Posted by greenberetTFS View Post
http://thesoldiersload.com/2012/05/2...-the-infantry/

Interesting article on why women DON'T belong in the infantry........

Big Teddy
great article...i also researched the israeli experiment with female combat troops...a complete failure...but the sniper question still exists in my mind...statistically better shots than males...can it work? probaly not in the us military ive concluded despite successes in foreign armies...

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Old 05-27-2012, 14:38   #59
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There is more to being a sniper than being a good shot.
a female sits at number 5 of the top ten in history...they have the capability...just sayin...
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Old 05-27-2012, 14:39   #60
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Does it need to be "stack of females"?

What if no female dies because stacks of males got hurt, died, got stressed, got PTSD, or left the service trying to ensure "she" lived? Who will keep and report those stats?
We do the same things for our brothers in arms. If a team mate is injured we take up the extra luggage. Actually happens all the time. I have carried two rucks for a few days while another SF soldier was injured.

And it would not matter if she was a supply clerk or a shooter, if she (or he) is wearing my uniform I would fight to the death for either of them. Not to ensure they "stayed alive" but because they are American soldiers.
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