Is Martial Law a possibility?

[Penn]

To add to my growing unease:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/firs...litia-members/

brb in 3hr

[csquare]

The late Dr. Adrian Rogers (1931 to 2005) offered the following observation several years ago and it bears poignant significance today:
"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the rich out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend is about the end of any nation.

You cannot multiply the wealth by dividing it."

IMHO, We're slowly starting down that slippery slope. I'm really interested how BH0 handles the G20. I think his time as the world's "rock star" is about to come crashing down like the Hindenburgh.

[grog18b]

Penn, just a thought, but by todays standards... Everyone in the boat in your avatar, would have been labled a "domestic terrorist." It seems like good company to be in. If slapping all of us pro-Constitution, super patriots with a label like "domestic terrorist" or "militia" makes the Government "feel better"... Oh well. Guess the "checks and balances" are still working. After all, it's better the Government fear the people, than the people fear the Government.

PS... When they start rounding us super patriots up and ask us to get on the cattle cars... it's time to grab your pitchfork.

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

What I see are the beached ships of the Achaeans. I see Agamemnon trying to convince himself that he's Franklin Roosevelt. I see Achilles preening for an Anne Liebowitz photo-shoot; Thetis, the original helicopter mom, is laying out his clothes. Where are the great tactician, the lord of the war cry, and the tamer of horses when you need them?

Nice analogy. Unfortunately you left off the part where the Achaeans persisted until they destroyed the most productive city state of the era. Then they returned home to continue goat herding and piracy/raiding for another four hundred (or thereabouts) years until Pericles comes along to usher in a "Golden Age" (which didn't do anything for Troy). I'm afraid this time the barbarians are at our gates. All the Anointed One - or his handlers - needs now is his own Odysseus to commit the final act of clever treachery and open the gates while we sleep. (Oh - wait - we did that ourselves on 4 Nov. The only thing left is for the victors to finish pillaging and burning!) The tactics haven't changed in millennium; it's still about rabble rousing to take from the rich (productive) and give to the poor (unproductive/power base) in order to buy their loyalty. The system works until you run out of rich victims.

[Blitzzz (RIP)]

Expressing differences of opinion is our privilege here. In the presents of so many who have offered their lives in the defense of this nation's constitution, and have been trained in the business of intel analysis, and area studies, I find it difficult to believe that Sigaba can not see the present POTUS's move to totalitarianism. Sigaba, again I complement your obvious level of formal education, but am disturbed at you displayed denial of the reality at hand.
Your defense of the POTUS is sheepish in his rhetoric is to placate the sheep and deliver devastation to the country while achieving his goal of our defeat.

I apologize if I'm wrong, and don't say these thing to Insult but to state my incredulity. Blitzz

[ZonieDiver]

My take on all this - be patient and Keep the faith.

I agree with Richard. Watching the citizens of ND-MN this a.m. on the news battling the flooding in very cold weather, working to save their homes, their neighbors' homes, and their cities filled me with hope - as did the actions of people in Iowa during their flooding. I think if the resilience of what I think is the majority of Americans can withstand the barrage that is landing on them now - we can "turn this car around" - with Congress in two years and the White House in four.

That said, to Richard's quote above, I'd add - "and keep your powder dry!"

[Penn]

What scares me is that Blitz, Peregrino, nmap and I all see the evolving metamorphosis of this beast. It’s a societal change, or at the very least, the fundamental underpinnings to create, what BHO has stated as one of his goals: The redistribution of wealth in America. Which would imply that csquare’s quote is dead on. If so, then I do not see, or rather can not accept Zonie Driver position of wait and see.
When it is suggested by one of the two national parties to develop “Fusion Zones”, one must take a step back, look down the road and ask what the possible outcomes are and who benefits from this information, then combined that with disarming, or severely limiting the access to arms, and the populace is neutered.
Pushing this a step further; most of us, as has been stated all signed on the dotted line “To protect and defend”….when faced with this situation, with those currently in a position of power, that by their very place states that they are in fact fulfilling that role and we see as not to be true….what then?

[ZonieDiver]

Originally Posted by Penn

What scares me is that Blitz, Peregrino, nmap and I all see the evolving metamorphosis of this beast. It’s a societal change, or at the very least, the fundamental underpinnings to create, what BHO has stated as one of his goals: The redistribution of wealth in America. Which would imply that csquare’s quote is dead on. If so, then I do not see, or rather can not accept ZonieDiver position of wait and see.
When it is suggested by one of the two national parties to develop “Fusion Zones”, one must take a step back, look down the road and ask what the possible outcomes are and who benefits from this information, then combined that with disarming, or severely limiting the access to arms, and the populace is neutered.
Pushing this a step further; most of us, as has been stated all signed on the dotted line “To protect and defend”….when faced with this situation, with those currently in a position of power, that by their very place states that they are in fact fulfilling that role and we see as not to be true….what then?

While not exactly proposing a "wait and see" approach - I do think political action, education, spreading information to those who are ill- or mis-informed, and being vocal in opposition to such things as "fusion zones" and the socialization of areas of our society that a few short years ago few would have predicted would be socialized - I fail to see other actions that would be appropriate at this time.

Rhetorically, what more can we do other than those things I listed above - coupled with my "preparation" admonition? We are less than two years away from mid-year Congressional elections. The Democrats do not have the much-needed 60 votes in the Senate. Even with "railroading" by Pelosi, et al - how much can they accomplish in that time that cannot be undone IF there is a significant reaction? Perhaps I have more faith in the average American. Perhaps I am "Pollyanna-ish" in my approach. I still say, "We'll see."

However, that does not mean I don't prepare for eventualities that I do not think are likely to come to pass. I do. I have since prior to the election of Jimmy Carter.

This is a great topic for discussion...

[Penn]

I am not advocating insurrection, yet.
Though it does appear that letter writing is not going to be enough; in fact, it’s pointless as a means of protest. You have to remember that the BHO campaign can secure the internet and popular view, that’s how they won the election. They raised 200ml, in nickels and dimes; I think? They possess the ability not only to make news, but they control the news. They have taken political psyops to a whole new level. You’re a racist and un-American if you disagree with them.

Prediction a blind deaf mute could make. When they start to roll out the AWB they will co-op it with a handgun limit also. They will do this for OUR SECURITY and SAFETY. They will show chart after chart of the recent carnage in the US. Mothers and babies…
It’ll be a frontal assault on the second amendment phrased in such a way, that if you don’t support it, you are the problem.

Aside note: I love the fact that both Sigaba and Peregrino can delve into Greek history/mythology in support of their argument.

[Constant]

Originally Posted by Penn

I am not advocating insurrection, yet........................................... Prediction a blind deaf mute could make. When they start to roll out the AWB they will co-op it with a handgun limit also. They will do this for OUR SECURITY and SAFETY. They will show chart after chart of the recent carnage in the US. Mothers and babies…
It’ll be a frontal assault on the second amendment phrased in such a way, that if you don’t support it, you are the problem.

And, as someone stated earlier on this board; know what your line is. When it's met, know what you're going to do.

Some "know" what they will do but we also know they will give in. Others have come together and stated that they will not give in; they are not necessarily militias, but folks who support the Constitutional rights given. Those are the ones that will be used as the media portrays them as unpatriotic and causing/advocating violence.

I just hope everyone already knows where they stand; because more than likely, you're going to be put to the test within the next few years.

[Richard]

Wellllllllll...you guys have me convinced...and now I'm ready, too!

Richard's $.02

Hint - read my avatar.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by nmap

Sigaba - have you read "The Collapse of Complex Societies" by Tainter? It's an interesting theory by a well-respected anthropologist. If nothing else, the language he uses is brilliant.

Nmap--

I am not familiar with Joseph Tainter (his CV is here.) I will be visiting a library in the next couple of days and I'll look for his book then.

[Go Devil]

I look over the short span of years that I have lived, at all of the amazing and even incredulous things that have transpired, and can say with great certainty that the only thing possible is
anything.

A short twenty years ago, the idea of the Euro was laughable.

Sixty years ago, the idea of a black American holding the office of President was ludicrous.

Eight years ago, a Muslim heading our political structure?

How many other items of technology, events in recent history, and personal experience have punched us all in the forehead?

Cooks, you were, for imagining such things; now, thanks to a movie with Mel Gibson, you are tin foil hat types.

Expect the worst so as not to be disappointed.

The only thing possible is anything.

[Richard]

A short twenty years ago, the idea of the Euro was laughable.

The idea of the Euro was formally agreed to with the passing of the 1987 Single European Act - more than 20 years ago - and it certainly wasn't a laughing matter among the EU and NATO partners when I was at the AmEmbassy-Bonn during the so-called German Reunification.

Eight years ago, a Muslim heading our political structure?

And who might that be? As far as I know, it hasn't happened yet. I certainly hope you're not referring to this guy.

http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck...a_muslim_1.php

Richard's tin foil wrapped $.02

[nmap]

I think that in planning a course of action, one first needs to develop a theory of why matters are presently developing as they are, which in turn suggests the direction of the future. Refinements to the theory should occur as events occur.

I think that ZonieDriver has suggested an optimal path, although my reasons for doing so are substantively different from what I perceive his to be. Thus, our focus should be appropriate political action, combined with suitable preparation. In a sense, our best course of action is to let the situation develop.

A key issue for governments has always been the exercise of control at a distance. We saw the problems involved as Rome sought to control a wide swath of the world. We saw it again when England attempted to maintain control of its colonies. At this point, I will hazard a strong prediction. Our own government, no matter what path it chooses, will face steadily greater challenges in maintaining control of the entirety of the United States. If this premise is true, the central government will face a problem similar to that experienced by Rome. Just because an order is given does not mean that it will be carried out in the provinces. And this will not be because of any particular resistance, but rather because the central government will simply lack the resources to accomplish its objectives.

In making this statement, I recognize that it is the polar opposite of our present experience, and of all of our expectations. Almost everyone alive today in the U.S. has experienced a profound change in the speed of communication and the volume of trade and commerce. We sense a modification of our environment, suppose that those changes will continue indefinitely, and so we extrapolate into the indefinite future. In my opinion, this leads us astray.

First, let us consider where we came from. Let us consider rural Arkansas, sometime around 1934. That's just 75 years ago. At the time, houses in the area did not have electricity or running water. An orange was a much desired gift, available at Christmas, and only one per child. A banana was a rarity. Radios were operated with power from an automobile battery, and were used sparingly to conserve the battery. Notice the immense contrast between our present day life experience and the situation I described. And yet, I know from conversations with living relatives the conditions were as I have described them. So then, why is it that our lifestyle has advanced so greatly in the past 75 years, in profound contrast with the more modest advances during similar periods in the past? Furthermore, can we anticipate that 75 years hence technology, communications, and commerce will have exhibited similar advances?

If one looks carefully, one sees a strong correlation with the availability of abundant cheap energy. By this, I mean abundant, cheap, crude oil. We can see a similar set of advances with the discovery and exploitation of coal. It is worth noting that oil supplanted coal, and that at each step our civilization enjoyed significant advances in prosperity, mobility, and quality of life. For example, we can contrast the range, speed, and power of navies as they transitioned from coal-fired ships to oil fired ships. Likewise, the change from wind-powered ships to coal powered vessels transformed navies.

It has been, and remains, my premise that the availability of cheap and abundant crude oil is in decline. Notice that the United States became an importer of oil in 1973. Consider the development of our economy in the period since that time. Whereas in the late 60s, it was common for one spouse in a family to work, and the other to stay at home, now both must work to maintain their lifestyle. In the era of Eisenhower, we built the interstate highway system, now we struggle to maintain it. We sent multiple missions to the Moon, whereas now we seem to have trouble maintaining the space program at all.

Let's consider military operations in Afghanistan. How practical would it be to maintain that operation if abundant fuel were substantially less available? Could the operations be maintained effectively without abundant support by helicopters, air transport, and ground-based vehicles? Could even the present level of control be effectively maintained if these tools were less available? These are all rhetorical questions. However, we can extend the principle to the issue of the cohesion of our domestic government. It is one thing to pass a law, and it is quite another to maintain its enforcement. As the value of the dollar declines, and as the availability of foreign financing for our debt likewise declines, we might ask where the resources will come from to support extensive enforcement mechanisms and a pervasive bureaucracy. I propose that such control will become steadily less practical, with effective control withdrawing from the peripheral areas over time. Large cities that produce substantial tax revenue will remain under control for quite a while. But the wide swathes of open territory may see steadily reduced activity.

The response to this will probably be higher taxes and some sort of conscription - perhaps for the civilian volunteer corps. However, higher taxes make tax evasion more profitable, and hence can increase corruption. Recall that our system depends on voluntary compliance with the tax code. It cannot easily adapt to pervasive evasion. In addition, unwilling conscripts may not be especially effective.

Could a Zimbabwe-like regime come into being? Perhaps. But without effective control, the various regions seem likely to revert to a quasi-feudal pattern. The local governmental appointee, not the central government, would have the real power. Such a situation suggests approaches I will not speculate on, especially since others here know vastly more than do I.

No matter what the inclinations of various officials might be, I strongly question their ability to carry out their intentions. We might wish to factor in the problems related to a widespread and growing failure of central control as we contemplate the possibilities for abuse of that control. I suspect that some areas will plead for martial law and troops. I don't think we'll have to wait many years to witness it.