75th Make Good SF?

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Adam1680

I'm not sure how ranger school and "competence and focus" are related?

Only in that whether someone is a 'V' or not does not - IMO and experience - necessarily determine whether or not they will make a competent ODA Cdr (or any other Cdr) with an appropriate mission focus. I've seen it work both ways with some of them being excellent and some being among the worst.

I commanded several SCUBA ODAs and was given command of the first one as a 2LT (with 8 yrs of AD and 6 yrs in Group with overseas tours in SEA and Europe prior to OCS and IOBC) when our Bn Cdr (a Ranger qualified MOH recipient) relieved the Ranger qualified Tm Ldr (a CPT) and Tm Sgt for incompetence.

There were two 2LT ODA CDRs in the 7th then - both diverted from the 82nd by our Bn CDR - I had the primary Bn SCUBA ODA and Danny (the other 2LT who was also a prior SF NCO) had the primary Bn HALO ODA.

My point is that the Cdrs I knew back then went looking for people who had already proven themselves to be competent and mission focused leaders - and not whether or not they were Ranger qualified.

Along that current line of reasoning of your Bn Cdr, are we now going to demand our 180As also be Ranger qualified or else despite their many years of time on an ODA?

If that's the case, so be it - but it's a definite change from the past as I knew it.

Thanks for listening and good luck - bottom line is that it's your baton to carry now, not mine, and I wish everyone who picks it up only the best as they carry on the tradition that we FOGs were fortunate enough to be a part of at one time.

And so it goes...

Richard

[Stras]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

And I thought Blank Frank retired?

"I talk in 5.56 and I Yell in 7.62"

Great speech to give the FRG when he's referring to "not needing language training"..

Most of us still think of Ranger School as an extended Phase I or whatever they are calling SUT these days.

[mark46th]

No one here is denigrating the Ranger Battalion. It has a specific mission and it trains for that mission. We all respect the battalion's history and its present work. What the FOGs are saying, is that passing the 9 week course means just that. It does not guarantee that you will be an effective leader or team member. The same goes for the Special Forces Q course. It means one has passed the course, nothing more. Now you have to go out in the real world and prove that you can function on all levels of the Special Forces Regiment. What the FOG's are saying is Special Forces has traditionally been a meritocracy. How you perform on an A, B and C Team(Sorry, I am a FOG, I still use the original designations) is more important than the tabs on your sleeve.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by mark46th

No one here is denigrating the Ranger Battalion. It has a specific mission and it trains for that mission. We all respect the battalion's history and its present work. What the FOGs are saying, is that passing the 9 week course means just that. It does not guarantee that you will be an effective leader or team member. The same goes for the Special Forces Q course. It means one has passed the course, nothing more. Now you have to go out in the real world and prove that you can function on all levels of Special Forces Regiment. What the FOG's are saying is Special Forces has traditionally been a meritocracy. How you perform on an A, B and C Team(Sorry, I am a FOG, I still use the original designations) is more important than the tabs on your sleeve.

Good post. That aspect should never change.

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by Adam1680

The part directed to me.

This turned into a bash my BN really quickly... I bashed neither your batalion nor your Commander. I disagreed with an individual policy.

I don't know why any officer or soldier, given the opportunity, would flat out deny the opportunity to at least attempt a school where they can better themselves? I agree! An individual Soldier should and would avail themselves of every opportunity for additional education. But, in this case the Soldier is not volunteering; he is being held to a standard that exsists only in one Battalion and for a limitted period of time. If being a Ranger was essential to being a Special Forces Officer (as being a Paratrooper) then it would be in the SWC pre-requisites or it would be part of the pipeline. It's not. Making Ranger School a pre-requsite was considered and rejected. (And a cautionary note: The Army doesn't have ae evaluation called "attempted". One "exceeds","meets", 'marginally meets" or "fails to meet the course standards".)

As many have pointed out before, the Q-Course is merely the initial stepping stone into SF. Well . . . maybe when Dinosaurs and Dozers ruled the Earth, but now? Then there was the Q and everything else (SERE, Language, HALO/SCUBA, etc) came later. Now? There is a heck of a lot more. So, how many gates does a guy have to pass? And a gate added after the race is won? Only for a job with this one guy?

Just because you graduated the Q-Course does not make you "too good" to learn something new, and in my opinion, ranger school is certainly not beneath an 18 series qualified soldier/ officer No one said that, Adam. The needs of the Army come first; the Army determined what a Special Forces Officer should look like. And that is my beef. He is changing the standard that all those Captains agreed too when they put everything on the line. Which begs the question: Why? So they are better educated -- in one aspect -- and have "proof"? Or so his Batalion has the advantage of these "uber" SF Captains? What's next? Max the APFT? 3+/3+? USMA grads? 6'3 and blonde?

There's absolutely nothing wrong, in my opinion, of a commander asking his subordinates to do more to better themselves and the organization. There is no "asking" going on here. The Battalion Commander has made it a requirement, an order. Wanna check? Look him in the eye and say, "Thanks but no thanks. how 'bout HALO?"

It is unnecessary, it's not a valid assumption, it violates the initial agreement. But as Richard states, it isn't my ruck to hump anymore.

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by Dozer523

And that is my beef. He is changing the standard that all those Captains agreed too when they put everything on the line. Which begs the question: Why? So they are better educated -- in one aspect -- and have "proof"? Or so his Batalion has the advantage of these "uber" SF Captains? What's next? Max the APFT? 3+/3+? USMA grads? 6'3 and blonde?

That's the bottom line in my opinion. Gives him bragging rights over the other BCs when they're vying for facetime with the Commander. Maybe the next Bn Cdr is more supportive of the repeal of the DADT policy and wants at least one, if not two, openly gay Tm Ldrs.

[Adam1680]

There's too much up there too quote from.. I see where you guys are coming from, and respect your opinion. I was the guy at ranger school that said people that "tab check" are stupid and it doesn't change who you are as a person, and it doesn't. Realizing times are different now than they were 10 years ago (I've been in 17 years), if I see a team leader without a ranger tab now, it would be a point of discussion pretty early in the relationship to figure out what happened. Again, by no means am I saying it makes you a good leader, bad leader, competent person or anything like that, but we all pretty much have the opportunity to go (multiple times if prior Infantry) and most of the guys at least WANT to go. The guys that avoid it or say that it's beneath them and their abilities would definitely get the waning eye.

I should've started out by saying that it's not just a battalion thing. SWCS is essentially mandating all active duty captains to go to ranger school TDY and return after the Q Course is completed. I don't know how enforced that is, but that was the brief that we received numerous times towards the end of the course. I think this is a generational thing more than anything.

[Blackrambo]

Originally Posted by SPECTRE1

How many of you QP's have your Ranger tab or have served in the 75th?

I think idle time is playing a role here. I know from experiencing the same thing not too long ago. The excitement of fulfilling a lifelong dream combined with loads idle time creates anxiety. It wasn't a bone head question when you look at it from the view of a young kid anxious to get started with his career in the military. I too used to come to this site looking for guidance on what my next move should be unaware of how foolish I must have looked to you quiet professionals. My message to this kid is shut up and learn. Since I have adapted that way of thinking I have been more focused on getting in tip top best shape and graduating college thats it. 25m target

[SF_BHT]

Originally Posted by Blackrambo

I think idle time is playing a role here. I know from experiencing the same thing not too long ago. The excitement of fulfilling a lifelong dream combined with loads idle time creates anxiety. It wasn't a bone head question when you look at it from the view of a young kid anxious to get started with his career in the military. I too used to come to this site looking for guidance on what my next move should be unaware of how foolish I must have looked to you quiet professionals. My message to this kid is shut up and learn. Since I have adapted that way of thinking I have been more focused on getting in tip top best shape and graduating college thats it. 25m target

This is a question for QP's not students or non QP's. Get back to reading......

[longrange1947]

Holy moly how did I miss this thread???

Ranger school is great, Rangers are great, they will break stuff in a heart beat! Problem is sometimes things don't need to be broken. Any CO that demands Ranger school for continuation in his command needs to be fired.

Pffft, are you 12 or 13???

Sorry somewhat flippant in answering, but damn, some of the statements by nugs are amazing!!!

Original question, is 75th good for SF, yes and no. Yes if you can understand that Ranger is a VERY small part of SF and no if you can't. For those that do not believe that we understand Ranger today, you will not make it in SF don't try.

[Joshua.David]

Somehow missed this entire thread as well. My .02 is STARTING off at Ranger Regiment is a thing to remember. It's a great place to learn and make some lifelong friends. Although I feel as if it is not a career path. It is a great stepping stone to move on to other jobs in the military. Seeing some of the regular army e4-e6 ranks, and comparing them next to untabbed e-4s from regiment.. It makes me wonder how the regular army gets anything done.