Special Forces beret flashes

[Bennett]

Originally Posted by Stras

Though I'm still curious as to the whole "when we became a branch" vs the Flash Changes in the mid-80's and whether or not they were related.

Richard or anyone else,
Did the 77th have a beret flash? If so, then my collection is incomplete.

Stras, as you well know, we became a branch for the enlisted in 1984 and officrs in 1986. Weall had flash color prior to that. After 1984 SF stndardized the colors so that 1/10 had to go to the 10th Grou color and 5th had to get the VN colors out. I arrived in Tolz just after the change, but like you still have my 1/10 colors. The wings background changed in the 90s as each group was allowed to mak it more group specific.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by Bennett

After 1984 SF stndardized the colors so that 1/10 had to go to the 10th Grou color .

Actually, I was in Toelz when 1/10 reverted to the 10th Group flash...it occurred 30 September 1983...I was commanding A-123 at the time and we returned from an exercise in Greece...we jumped into Karen and as we collected our air items and got on the bus the Battalion XO and CSM were busy telling us we were out of uniform because we were wearing a Det Europe flash and not a 10th Group flash...Det Europe was going to be redesignated ARSOF(E) or something like that...much ado about nothing, but it did give some of the grown-ups a reason to be petulant...

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Ambush Master

And the 5th Group was a Black Background with the Colors of the RVN Flag. The Yellow and red were later dropped after the return of the Colors from RVN and the US withdrawal.

The 3rd Herd Colors were a composite of the Group Colors that it was formed from.

We didn't change it until 84..... I'm pretty sure we were out of VN by then...... I was one that "converted" from a VN flash to an all black one. TS

[Utah Bob]

Originally Posted by Bennett

The Army Institute of Heraldry isn't a good choice. The information there is flawed at best, just try looking up 10th SFG, according to them we didn't get our colors until the 80s? I have a document at home that I'll scan and send, it tells the history or folk lore of how each group got there flash color.

Yeah, I don't know what's with the dates they have. I know we switched to the green/red background in late 68 or 69. Maybe they weren't "officially" adopted till later?
I'd like to see that document you have.

[Richard]

After 1984 SF stndardized the colors so that 1/10 had to go to the 10th Grou color and 5th had to get the VN colors out.

Actually - COL Guest wanted the RVN era colors out of the 5th SFGA flash.

RE: 5th SFG flashes:

• The original 5th SFG flash was all black in 1961.
  
• The 2nd pattern black w/white border (added in 1962) flash was worn but not officially authorized until 1964.
  
• First pattern USASFV (Prov) flash (never authorized) prior to 5th SFG deployment was all yellow with three diagonal red stripes.
  
• The 3rd pattern 5th SFG flash was the black w/white border and diagonal yellow-red-yellow-red-yellow-red-yellow stripes denoting (a) colors of original USASFV flash, (b) colors of early TDY teams from 1st and 7th SFGs and (c) RVN flag.

On 7 Dec 84 COL James Guest, 5th SFG CDR, submitted a request to the Director, Institute of Heraldry, requesting that the official flash of the 5th SFG be changed back to the solid black with white border because:

• The colors of a foreign flag should not be incorporated in a US Army beret flash
• The RVN and the original purpose for having the RVN colors in the flash no longer existed
• The 5th SFG was no longer oriented towards SEA
• The mission and organization of the 5th SFGA had been significantly transformed to meet modern requirements and the change of beret flash would depict that metamorphosis

The request was approved by the Institute of Heraldry on 16 Jan 85 and the official change took place in a ceremony on 6 May 1985.

* Sutherland, Ian. Special Forces of the US Army; 1990.

Richard's $.02

[Stras]

Originally Posted by Bennett

Stras, as you well know, we became a branch for the enlisted in 1984 and officrs in 1986. Weall had flash color prior to that. After 1984 SF stndardized the colors so that 1/10 had to go to the 10th Grou color and 5th had to get the VN colors out.

I was referring to the similarity in the timeframe of the two actions (Branch and Flash Change) and whether or not becoming a branch caused the standardization of the flashes change. This was prior to my coming on the scene, and I've yet to find a good reference on the matter.

Did you guys get any more Reutberg out there yet? I'm cracking open the last of my Resupply Bundle stash.

ARSOFE wore the Green flash with the German Colors until they were Deactivated and reactivated as 7th Special Operations Support Command (SOSC) Theater Army (TA). 7th SOSC(TA) then switched to an almost teal blue flash with what I called "rainbow stripes". I believe this was right before the move from Bad Tölz to Stuttgart in late 1991/1992.

[f50lrrp]

The white border on the fifth group flash was added in 1964 to honor President Kennedy. White is the traditional Vietnamese color of mourning.

[Richard]

The white border on the fifth group flash was added in 1964 to honor President Kennedy. White is the traditional Vietnamese color of mourning.

So they honored JFK by mourning him a year before his assassination?

Richard

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by Richard

So they honored JFK by mourning him a year before his assassination?

1964 was a year after his assassination...

[Richard]

1964 was a year after his assassination...

You been drinking again?

The 2nd pattern black w/white border (added in 1962) flash was worn but not officially authorized until 1964.

Richard

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by Richard

You been drinking again?

Not right now...

[Utah Bob]

Originally Posted by lksteve

Not right now...

How about now? Cause I sure am.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by Utah Bob

How about now? Cause I sure am.

Yup...

[Pete]

A little on the 5th Group Flash

http://www.groups.sfahq.com/5th/flash_and_insignia.htm

The last unit in 5th Gp to wear the old flash was ODA 575 which didn't change over to the new flash until the summer of 1985.

Originally Posted by glebo

wow, these explanaitions certanly cleared up alot of trivia question stuff.

thanks

In winning bar trivia bets, I've found it useful to quote those of authority like, The Reaper, Ambush Master and finally Richard.

- sorry fellas, I couldn't resist.

WD