Are SF Soldiers Biologically Different?

[Stras]

Originally Posted by glebo

Also, if ya ever noticed, there's quite a lot of lefties in SF also....( I mean folks who write left handed)..that is..more so than anywhere else...

anything to it??...

Four of seven on my team are lefties..... course, three of these are also MFF JMs.

There's an attitude that is exhibited either verbally, or physically that tends to ID us as well.. At least according to my better half, who laughs at how we try to blend in as she picks them all out in the crowd. The swagger, or checking of dead space, sitting against a wall in a bar, etc.

[Zerekoh]

Biological and Psychological...

I always love when Doc's refer to us sociopaths or psychopathic (but in a good way right?).

i.e.
http://mindwarriors.typepad.com/mind...aths_vs_p.html

"To further illustrate this idea of sociopath vs. psychopath lets indulge in a few hopefully recognizable and easily understood societal archetypes. A Special Forces soldier, military snipers, intelligence operatives are in my opinion examples of socially accepted psychopaths whose focus is on their interpretations of God, country and perhaps family. It is their intent, rationale and espoused beliefs that gives them acceptance within our society. These individuals focus on their code of honor, something noble, consequently they are able to kill when necessary, gather intelligence, exploit others and gain information by what may appear to be nefarious means all in the name of what they deem as their higher goals. The danger is clearly evident when people in government rationalize their militaristic posture or domestic policies regarding the citizenry's right to know or protest as somehow unpatriotic, cowardice or tools of subversives. The point is that a psychopath is not necessarily a cold-blooded killer in many instances although I would say that all cold-blooded killers are definately psychopaths or sociopaths."

or...
http://murderousmusings.blogspot.com...ychopathy.html

"The Fearless Dominant type (which I will call the FD type for simplicity's sake) is often a paradoxical mix of charm and nastiness. Cool and calm under pressure, the FD type is not easily rattled. They lack the same kind of anticipatory anxiety that most people have, so instead of thinking, "What? Jump out of a perfectly good airplane?", the FD type just thinks, "Cool!" Fearless Dominance is associated with a number of things our society considers desirable or good: high verbal I.Q., high performance, and economic success. The FD type is often charming and socially influential. He or she relishes directing other people's activities and basking in their admiration. The FD type is sexually adventurous and often takes risks. It's not that they can't feel fear or anxiety; it's just that it takes a much more extreme situation to elicit those emotions. FD types live for the thrill, the excitement, the adrenaline rush. With proper parenting and a nurturing environment, an FD type might become a fireman or policeman. As Dr. Benning said, if you were assembling a Special Forces team, you would want to screen for people high in fearless dominance."

It's interesting when psychologists use our description in the classification of psychopathic behavior. So what is the conclusion?
Take a highly skilled, charismatic, very fit, moderately acceptable psychopathic individual. Then give him the worlds best firepower at his disposal, and enough cash to grease the wheels. What do you get?

Any country you want...

Fortunately for others we Free the Oppressed

De Oppresso Liber Brothers.

Hopefully my first actual post lives up to this forum.

[glebo]

Originally Posted by Zerekoh

Biological and Psychological...

I always love when Doc's refer to us sociopaths or psychopathic (but in a good way right?).

i.e.
http://mindwarriors.typepad.com/mind...aths_vs_p.html

"To further illustrate this idea of sociopath vs. psychopath lets indulge in a few hopefully recognizable and easily understood societal archetypes. A Special Forces soldier, military snipers, intelligence operatives are in my opinion examples of socially accepted psychopaths whose focus is on their interpretations of God, country and perhaps family. It is their intent, rationale and espoused beliefs that gives them acceptance within our society. These individuals focus on their code of honor, something noble, consequently they are able to kill when necessary, gather intelligence, exploit others and gain information by what may appear to be nefarious means all in the name of what they deem as their higher goals. The danger is clearly evident when people in government rationalize their militaristic posture or domestic policies regarding the citizenry's right to know or protest as somehow unpatriotic, cowardice or tools of subversives. The point is that a psychopath is not necessarily a cold-blooded killer in many instances although I would say that all cold-blooded killers are definately psychopaths or sociopaths."

or...
http://murderousmusings.blogspot.com...ychopathy.html

"The Fearless Dominant type (which I will call the FD type for simplicity's sake) is often a paradoxical mix of charm and nastiness. Cool and calm under pressure, the FD type is not easily rattled. They lack the same kind of anticipatory anxiety that most people have, so instead of thinking, "What? Jump out of a perfectly good airplane?", the FD type just thinks, "Cool!" Fearless Dominance is associated with a number of things our society considers desirable or good: high verbal I.Q., high performance, and economic success. The FD type is often charming and socially influential. He or she relishes directing other people's activities and basking in their admiration. The FD type is sexually adventurous and often takes risks. It's not that they can't feel fear or anxiety; it's just that it takes a much more extreme situation to elicit those emotions. FD types live for the thrill, the excitement, the adrenaline rush. With proper parenting and a nurturing environment, an FD type might become a fireman or policeman. As Dr. Benning said, if you were assembling a Special Forces team, you would want to screen for people high in fearless dominance."

It's interesting when psychologists use our description in the classification of psychopathic behavior. So what is the conclusion?
Take a highly skilled, charismatic, very fit, moderately acceptable psychopathic individual. Then give him the worlds best firepower at his disposal, and enough cash to grease the wheels. What do you get?

Any country you want...

Fortunately for others we Free the Oppressed

De Oppresso Liber Brothers.

Hopefully my first actual post lives up to this forum.

Well, actually, this should've been your 2d....intro first...

[Zerekoh]

Rgr,
I knocked out the mandatory intro, and now giving my $0.02 here. I was referring to actual information folks might care about as my first post, as opposed to my intro

When going through the SFQC in 03' we gave blood samples and cheek swabs and got some briefs in the Delta pipeline about the collaboration with Duke University to identify the "super soldier gene" and what not. One of the SWC Psych docs discussed with us how approximately 75% of SF folks could be classified as psychopaths.
Keep in mind there are different levels of psychopathy, and some of the lower descriptions include:
Glibness/superficial charm
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Lack of remorse or guilt
ect.

It seemed interesting at the time, and reading this thread brought it back to memory.

Cheers

Originally Posted by Zerekoh

http://mindwarriors.typepad.com/mind...aths_vs_p.html

"To further illustrate this idea of sociopath vs. psychopath lets indulge in a few hopefully recognizable and easily understood societal archetypes. A Special Forces soldier, military snipers, intelligence operatives are in my opinion examples of socially accepted psychopaths whose focus is on their interpretations of God, country and perhaps family. It is their intent, rationale and espoused beliefs that gives them acceptance within our society. These individuals focus on their code of honor, something noble, consequently they are able to kill when necessary, gather intelligence, exploit others and gain information by what may appear to be nefarious means all in the name of what they deem as their higher goals. The danger is clearly evident when people in government rationalize their militaristic posture or domestic policies regarding the citizenry's right to know or protest as somehow unpatriotic, cowardice or tools of subversives. The point is that a psychopath is not necessarily a cold-blooded killer in many instances although I would say that all cold-blooded killers are definately psychopaths or sociopaths."

or...
http://murderousmusings.blogspot.com...ychopathy.html

"The Fearless Dominant type (which I will call the FD type for simplicity's sake) is often a paradoxical mix of charm and nastiness. Cool and calm under pressure, the FD type is not easily rattled. They lack the same kind of anticipatory anxiety that most people have, so instead of thinking, "What? Jump out of a perfectly good airplane?", the FD type just thinks, "Cool!" Fearless Dominance is associated with a number of things our society considers desirable or good: high verbal I.Q., high performance, and economic success. The FD type is often charming and socially influential. He or she relishes directing other people's activities and basking in their admiration. The FD type is sexually adventurous and often takes risks. It's not that they can't feel fear or anxiety; it's just that it takes a much more extreme situation to elicit those emotions. FD types live for the thrill, the excitement, the adrenaline rush. With proper parenting and a nurturing environment, an FD type might become a fireman or policeman. As Dr. Benning said, if you were assembling a Special Forces team, you would want to screen for people high in fearless dominance."

I would have to disagree with these docs. I don't think one volunteers to be a sociopath, or psychopath, it just happens. They are not trained. SF recieve extensive training to do the job that they do. And that training never ceases. One does not have to be a sociopath or psychopath to be SF. In fact I would venture to guess quite the opposite.

The persons diagnosed, or in need of this diagnosis cannot stop, nor do they particularly care about the outcome of their actions, or the effect their actions may have on others, save for their own gratification.

I would also ventrue to guess that fear is not absent, just minimized, controlled or compartmentalized in SF types.

Sociopaths are often loners that choose to live with as little human contact as possible, unless this contact fits into and feeds their disorder, or is job related. I think that SF types, in order to make up the teams they do, and perform the jobs they do, have to be, for lack of a better term, people persons, outgoing, sociable, and tolerant.

Given the psych evals needed for the designation, I am sure many personality disorders are screened out.

Considering the topic of this thread, are SF biologically different, I tend to think that this would be a huge difference from both the population and those diagnosed with anti-social personality disorder.

So, I have to ask, what the purpose of this type of comparison is, and why would one choose to make it in relation to SF soldiers?

ETA: DSM-IV ASPDO Criteria / Proposed Criteria for PPDO

http://www.macalester.edu/academics/...ntisocial.html

A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.

2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.

3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.

4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.

5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.

6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.

7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

B. The individual is at least age 18 years of age.

C. There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15.

D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a manic episode.

By definition, all individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder had preceding Conduct Disorder as a child. Among those with Childhood Conduct Disorder, however, only about 40 percent of males and 24 percent of females are diagnosed with Adult Antisocial Personality Disorder. The highest reported rate of diagnosis is among the male adult population, averaging between ages 25 and 44. These are also the ages of most convicted serial killers with Antisocial Personality Disorder, for example Ted Bundy who was a classic psychopath-cunning, charming, callous-and of course, deadly. For more information on Ted Bundy

Among those criminals with Antisocial Personality Disorder few ever make it into old age, because of a abnormally high rate of early death from suicide, homicide, accidents, and complications of drug and alcohol abuse.

Because the criteria for diagnosing Antisocial Personality Disorder emphasize overt violations of social rules, it is not surprising that it correlates so well with criminality. Research on American criminals showed that 25 to 30 percent of the imprisoned inmates meet the criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder. Canadian researcher Robert Hare (1983) reported that 40 to 50 percent of the convicted prisoners in Canada met the criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder and that in some Canadian prison populations the rate was as high as 75 percent. Psychopathic prisoners on average, have longer sentences and are less successful in staying out of prison than nonpsychopathic prisoners.

Patterns emerge in the evaluation of the histories and backgrounds of individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder. There is a reoccurring course of childhood deviance in which their problems start at a young age and tend to continue into adulthood.

A DSM-IV field trial was done that aimed at improving criteria for antisocial personality disorder. The criteria are based on the revised Psychopathy Checklist, an interview procedure that also draws on information from any other available source, such as criminal or case records. The proposed disorder was named Psychopathy Personality Disorder. The first five characteristics pertain to a subscale consisting of selfish, callous, and remorseless unstable and antisocial lifestyle, and the other five pertain to chronically unstable and antisocial lifestyle.

Proposed Criteria for Psychopathic Personality Disorder

2. Inflated and arrogant self-appraisal

3. Lacks remorse

4. Lacks empathy

5. Deceitful and manipulative

6. Early behavior problems

7. Adult antisocial behavior

8. Impulsive

9. Poor behavioral controls

10. Irresponsible

Seems a world apart, if you ask me, but I am interested in the QPs thoughts on this.

[Zerekoh]

What is truly interesting is the assumption made by medical professionals that SF have traits of psychological disorders, when they are viewing the subject from an outside perspective. I do not know of any medical professionals, that have been Special Forces, to make such claims.

But for conjecture in the discussion of Biological difference, it can be addressed.

As a Special Forces trainer/ evaluator of SF hopefuls, I do know that training brings out traits in those that have the ability and attributes. SF candidates that are successful ARE different, we make them qualified during the training. Sure we give them skills to be good entry level operators, but the qualities that are in them from the start make them successful in the training, and on a team.
We cannot make a Special Forces Soldier with the SOF core attributes, we can only identify them during the training.

Originally Posted by Zerekoh

What is truly interesting is the assumption made by medical professionals that SF have traits of psychological disorders, when they are viewing the subject from an outside perspective. I do not know of any medical professionals, that have been Special Forces, to make such claims.

But for conjecture in the discussion of Biological difference, it can be addressed.

As a Special Forces trainer/ evaluator of SF hopefuls, I do know that training brings out traits in those that have the ability and attributes. SF candidates that are successful ARE different, we make them qualified during the training. Sure we give them skills to be good entry level operators, but the qualities that are in them from the start make them successful in the training, and on a team.
We cannot make a Special Forces Soldier with the SOF core attributes, we can only identify them during the training.

So in a way, the skills and attributes are already present, in some cases dormant, and they show through during training? Is there a generalized list or is it just something that is recognized as trainees progress? If there was a list (kind of a "this is what we look for"), whether your own or one in wide use, I am certain the traits would dispell any association or comparison with diagnosable personality disorders.

[Zerekoh]

Forgive me for probably restating what is already available in this forum, but I claim newb forum status still

This is what we look for in all the SF trainees:

http://www.soc.mil/swcs/about.html

ARSOF CORE ATTRIBUTES

These attributes will be used as a benchmark in the selection of special-operations Soldiers. All Soldiers entering training at SWCS will be briefed on the attributes. Their initial counseling will be based on the attributes, and the attributes' importance will be stressed throughout training.

Integrity
Being trustworthy and honest; acting with honor and unwavering adherence to ethical standards.

Courage
Acting on own convictions despite consequences; is willing to sacrifice for a larger cause; not paralyzed by fear of failure.

Perseverance
Working toward an end; has commitment; physical or mental resolve; motivated; gives effort to the cause; does not quit.

Personal Responsibility
Being self-motivated and an autonomous self-starter; anticipates tasks and acts accordingly; takes accountability for his actions.

Professionalism
Behaving as a standard-bearer for the regiment; has a professional image, to include a level of maturity and judgment mixed with confidence and humility; forms sound opinions and makes own decisions; stands behind his sensible decisions based on his experiences.

Adaptability
Possessing the ability to maintain composure while responding to or adjusting one's own thinking and actions to fit a changing environment; the ability to think and solve problems in unconventional ways; the ability to recognize, understand and navigate within multiple social networks; the ability to proactively shape the environment or circumstances in anticipation of desired outcomes.

Team Player
Possessing the ability to work on a team for a greater purpose than himself; dependable and loyal; works selflessly with a sense of duty; respects others and recognizes diversity.

Capability
Maintaining physical fitness, to include strength and agility; has operational knowledge; able to plan and communicate effectively.

These attributes, in my opinion, can be honed during training but not created. No matter how vigorous or awesome the training venue is, a candidate will show these traits or he won't.

As for the sociopathic or pyschopatic tendencies: Perhaps from an outside doctor trying to make a cool analogy to his students, he has a skewed idea of what Special Forces is. I think that these guys need to read the SOF Core Attributes, then remake their case.

Roger that, I'm pretty newbish myself and still learning (don't let my post count fool you, I've been fairly lucky ). While those would definately mark a distance from personality disorders, I think those are the general overlying criteria, almost what can go on a SF recruiting pamphlet, IMHO. I am sure that more development occours throughout a SF soldiers career; with other traits that definately define the biological differences between SF and the rest of the world. Anyways, maybe that could be another thread some other time (started by someone else besides me). Thanks for your replys.

[Zerekoh]

I will go a little further down this rabbit hole though...

As we look for these traits in trainees. They are well published and well known to SF candidates.
So do we select guys that truly have these traits or...
Do they possess the ability to show these traits under all conditions because they are brilliant enough to know what people are looking for...

That being said, the moment they show something other than a SOF core attribute, they are gone, trainee or seasoned operator.

Brilliance being an acceptable trait, providing it does not interfere or take the place of the other qualities though. That is one that is probably honed and developed through experience, and comes to the forefront under unique situations and when faced with complicated or difficult tasks no doubt.

Intelligence levels I would imagine are quite high for SF types in comparison to non SF, that coupled with an ability to learn, learn quickly, and an insatiable appetite for more.

Would you agree?

[Zerekoh]

I would agree with that.

All that being said. It seems like we are looking for choir boys, if you read the SWCS home page.

I can assure you, we are not looking for choir boys.

Choir boys don't have a sh** eating grin when they are skinnin the smoke wagon against a lesser enemy

Roger, Zerekoh. Thanks for your insight.