Are SF Soldiers Biologically Different?

[13eme]

I am not of the mind to think that the ability to go where others fear to tread is due to neurological differences. I think that in this day and age we, as a species, are trying to be more aware of our own true natures. People are way too sensitive in their disection of what makes others tick. My own experiences saw me step aside from what most would call an 'ordinary life' following a path that few dare to tread. Was this because I have an additional gene that made me seek out this working arena? Not in the slightest. I grew up in orphanages around thew south coast of England. I faced the ultimatum of "get a job or get out" at age 16. I done what most other kids my age were doing, I joined the military. The fact that I had already experienced 16 years of dicipline stood me in stead for fast promotion through the lower NCO ranks. I went places, physically and mentally, which were easily returned from by using my own mental classification system. Realizing what needs to be done at a certain time in order to achieve the right outcome and then having the maturity and mental stability to realize that OK, I'm now back in the 'real world'. Click, readjust.

Some unfortunate souls couldn't make the transition. We'd been through the same training, fought alongside each other but at the end of the day I tend to think its more about ones strength of psyche and mental stability and being able to switch between differing mentality "modes".

My 2c worth.
13eme

[CERBERUS]

"Although the work has been going on for several years, the researchers are still uncertain whether the Green Berets' enhanced capacity to endure trauma was genetic or had been acquired through Special Forces training."

SF soldiers are on average more physically fit than the average. Which in itself may lead to this phenomena being above average.
Comparing soldiers who have been conditioned to extreme physical and mental stress in training, to soldiers who have not had nearly as much experience is not very useful in my opinion.
I believe that responses to stress can be controlled and learned, within reason.

It would be interesting to see how SF qualified soldiers fair against other groups that volunteer and train for working in hazardous conditions, maybe firefighters or something to that effect.

Maybe use 18X'ers or soldiers slated to attend SFAS and see if there is a correlation in the levels of these chemicals before and after SFAS and subsequent training.

I know that 18 series soldiers are elite and deserve all the respect in the world. If you chalk it up to genetic superiority it takes alot away from those guys who have to work twice as hard to wear the beret.

The science involved in the article does not prove or disprove whether it is an environmental or genetic trait though. I think it is most likely a product of the environment 18 series soldiers subject themselves to, especially considering how the approach used in the study.

I will shut up now and return to trawling for information.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by CERBERUS

"Although the work has been going on for several years, the researchers are still uncertain whether the Green Berets' enhanced capacity to endure trauma was genetic or had been acquired through Special Forces training."

SF soldiers are on average more physically fit than the average. Which in itself may lead to this phenomena being above average.
Comparing soldiers who have been conditioned to extreme physical and mental stress in training, to soldiers who have not had nearly as much experience is not very useful in my opinion.
I believe that responses to stress can be controlled and learned, within reason.

It would be interesting to see how SF qualified soldiers fair against other groups that volunteer and train for working in hazardous conditions, maybe firefighters or something to that effect.

Maybe use 18X'ers or soldiers slated to attend SFAS and see if there is a correlation in the levels of these chemicals before and after SFAS and subsequent training.

I know that 18 series soldiers are elite and deserve all the respect in the world. If you chalk it up to genetic superiority it takes alot away from those guys who have to work twice as hard to wear the beret.

The science involved in the article does not prove or disprove whether it is an environmental or genetic trait though. I think it is most likely a product of the environment 18 series soldiers subject themselves to, especially considering how the approach used in the study.

I will shut up now and return to trawling for information.

They also tested Rangers, Spec Ops aviators, and other personnel who attended SERE at CMK. The second post on this thread explained that.

They are as fit as most SF personnel.

They did not display the same levels of neuropeptide Y.

TR

[18Ddave]

About 4 years ago in SOFMSSP there was this Maj [back then] that headed this study. He spoke to our class of his findings. Needless to say its pretty f-ckin cool whether you believe heredity or environment.
One thing I learned and still remember from the 18D course; the body has an unbelievable capacity to adapt to its environment. You walk a lot you get caluses, your in the sun a lot the skin learns to protect itself, there are people you can eat poisonous foods or that whack job in the SW that has envenomed himself with enough rattlesnake venom that it doesn't bother him anymore. Therefore I feel the tough, dangerous training and experiences cause the body to produce this chemical in greater amounts over time.
They should draw the blood of SF wannabes before they start and check the levels of the ones who made it again a couple years later for a more conclusive study.
I feel backgrounds have a part in it too. Most guys I know either; have no siblings, 1st born or are the shining star of a severely dysfunctional family.
In the end I think we have been doing something right all along through out history. Tough realistic training. SF happens to get most of the best and brightest to volunteer. I believe age, tough experiences, and the background the individual comes from make up most the SFers.
dave
Oh, I got a similar question; which came 1st the chicken or the egg?

[CERBERUS]

"The study compared SF Soldiers against other soldiers in SERE, including Rangers, aviators, etc."

I didn't read that part in the article and I don't know where this information is coming from. Not to mention the article itself was pretty vague but really interesting.

However, assuming that statement is correct and that is the "control group", the results would definitely indicate that training is the source of the neurological response.

If this was an inherited trait or a genetic difference the idea that all of the people who exhibit it would find their way to the SF's instead of the Ranger regiment or an aviator slot is highly unlikely, actually more like preposterous. Although I am not about to attempt to compare these jobs last time I checked Rangers and Pilots on average are pretty high speed. The likelyhood of all these genetically similar people winding up among any one particular group is very unlikely.

I agree with you 18Dave. They should have a better experiment. Also they should look at other factors like you mentioned age, experience, etc... The egg came first. Ever noticed how much the egg looks like a cell.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question85.htm
Chickens evolved from non-chickens through small changes caused by the mixing of male and female DNA or by mutations to the DNA that produced the zygote. These changes and mutations only have an effect at the point where a new zygote is created. That is, two non-chickens mated and the DNA in their new zygote contained the mutation(s) that produced the first true chicken. That one zygote cell divided to produce the first true chicken.

Prior to that first true chicken zygote, there were only non-chickens. The zygote cell is the only place where DNA mutations could produce a new animal, and the zygote cell is housed in the chicken's egg. So, the egg must have come first.

[SB8734]

One interesting thing I found:



"Studies of mice and monkeys show that repeated stress — and a high-fat, high-sugar diet — stimulate the release of neuropeptide Y, causing fat to build up in the abdomen. Researchers believe that by manipulating levels of the appetite hormone, they could make fat melt from areas where it was not desired and accumulate at sites where it is needed.[18][19]"

^ Thomas H. Maugh II (July 2, 2007). "Research points to way to eliminate belly fat". Chicago Tribune.
^ Kuo LE, Kitlinska JB, Tilan JU, et al. (July 2007). "Neuropeptide Y acts directly in the periphery on fat tissue and mediates stress-induced obesity and metabolic syndrome". Nat. Med. 13 (7):


Does that correlate to any of your diets: High-fat, high sugar? I'm curious, are SF soldiers more likely to be overweight than non-SF soldiers, or SF include all kinds of body types?

Thanks in advance for your insights.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Abrazadereas

Imma make yall friggin proud'a me!

We must be, because I'm SF and you're non-SF, and your posts naturally repulse me.

[Tress]

Originally posted by Abrazadereas:

Imma make yall friggin proud'a me!

After having filtered the above through the on-line, idiot, street language translator I now know what he is trying to say.

And I have serious doubts. You learning to write in proper English will surprise me. Maybe you should just settle for that instead of SF training. It is good to have goals, but make them realistic.

Tress

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by Tress

After having filtered the above through the on-line, idiot, street language translator I now know what he is trying to say.

And I have serious doubts. You learning to write in proper English will surprise me. Maybe you should just settle for that instead of SF training. It is good to have goals, but make them realistic.

Tress

It's funny how we manage to attract these "odd balls" isn't it?..........

Speaking about "cojones",that's another reason why we are,who we are.....

Big Teddy

[Guy]

Originally Posted by SB8734

One interesting thing I found:



"Studies of mice and monkeys show that repeated stress

Our education system has run amok! When mice and/or monkeys start humping like mules, carrying guns, jumping out of planes, speaking foreign languages, paying taxes, and dying for their country, and etc. etc. etc.....the goddamn comparison is retarded!

Stay safe.

[mojaveman]

A warrior gene?

People who have an inborn aptitude for handling weapons and fighting? People who when put into a threatening and dangerous enviroment just seem to know how to instinctively deal with it? People who are just plain braver and bolder than some others? People who are driven to serve and protect their tribe?

[Richard]

Originally Posted by mojaveman

A warrior gene?

People who have an inborn aptitude for handling weapons and fighting? People who when put into a threatening and dangerous enviroment just seem to know how to instinctively deal with it? People who are just plain braver and bolder than some others? People who are driven to serve and protect their tribe?

By Crom!

Richard

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Abrazadereas

I know that I suck. I still drop things sometimes or forget and that is unacceptable - until I have matured to the point that I am always paying close attention 100% of the time I am nowhere near the level that I'd need to be at. I repulse myself sometimes too, but I don't stop adjusting according to what I learn.

I want a house in the hills and a garden, with a wife, and a son that has a father he can be proud of like I never did. Perhaps I was not born with the caliber needed to do what you do. We'll find out. In any case I will serve in the capacity that I am capable of. I have in my life been very confused at times. Completely clueless even. I've screwed up at times. Qualifying my psychological and physiological capacity would only be desperate until I have been tried and tested. I see that there are those that determine they must grow up and those that avoid the fact until the day they die. I'll grow up. A place amongst men with standards as exacting as yours is my goal, honestly, what other goal is worthy of the one life I know I have to live? What kind of man would avoid placing himself at risk of severe discomfort, injury, death, and even worse, personal failure, when the fact is that he has to live with himself and nothing will ever hurt worse then the sense of not having achieved his potential? How can a man live with himself knowing that some people go to bat for others, and he didn't - though he could have and it was his duty? like I said. I will contribute as I am capable.

Big words, I know. Meaning nothing. It's for actions to mean things. I apologize for setting you guys off by speaking in colloquialism, it's a habit I picked up from reading lots of Mark Twain and etcetera. I know exactly how such presentation must look to you and I had had quite a bit too much to drink on my first day off in a long while. It's no excuse. I should have kept in mind how it would look to you and how little tolerance exists in this situation for such a thing.

I don't expect a hug now. I just wanted to say what I think ought to have been said. It's not a defense. If I am incorrect, I'll eat more sh*t so I learn.

Baby steps.

[Utah Bob]

Where's Dr. Phil when you need him?

[ZonieDiver]

Originally Posted by greenberetTFS

It's funny how we manage to attract these "odd balls" isn't it?..........

Speaking about "cojones",that's another reason why we are,who we are.....

Big Teddy

Sometimes, "Oddballs" are good!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhJZXOWNdMM