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Old 07-15-2006, 10:26   #1
mugwump
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LEO Comms: Need help

A friend and I are training to manage our local municipal wells in case the SHTF. (If anyone needs info on gender sensitivity or how to adjust the pH of muskeg water in Alaska, I'm your go-to guy. Bureaucracies are amazing.) We currently use Lake Michigan water, but the village wisely maintained the wells as backup.

The village's current plan is to phone us if they need us, which has an obvious flaw to my way of thinking. I'd like to expand on that SOP. From what you know about typical suburban LEO comm systems, can anyone recommend some alternatives? I'm assuming they have plans to keep their comms up. One way via scanner? A handheld transceiver?

I'm hoping there will be several more who volunteer for maintaining basic services and I suspect any hardware we'll need will come out of our own pockets so cost is a secondary but real factor. I can't imagine the village will spend any money on their end so we'll have to integrate into their existing setup.

I don't know what I don't know so if you have any questions on their setup I'll try to get answers. A complicating factor, though, is the services dept. is apparently not dialed into the police infrastructure, which is another problem as I see it but one thing at a time.

Thanks.
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Old 07-15-2006, 10:37   #2
The Reaper
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Hardwire phones should have a power backup at the company for a little while.

Cells should have the same, though in a disaster the cells may be overloaded with the usual OMG traffic.

Most public works and emergency services departments use Motorola handheld transceivers and vehicle mount radios for key personnel. That system is subject to the same issues, since most rely upon repeaters.

New Orleans was up until the batteries ran down. If you are looking to communicate beyond 72 hours or so, you better figure out how to keep power to the system and chargers, and fuel in the generators.

TR
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Old 07-15-2006, 11:09   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
...If you are looking to communicate beyond 72 hours or so, you better figure out how to keep power to the system and chargers, and fuel in the generators.

TR
Repeaters. Didn't know that.

That's the conundrum: if they actually need me it'll be because the grid is down. And I have absolutely no faith in the grid. Electricity around here is predominantly nuclear from an aging fleet of Exelor reactors. There are ongoing maintenance issues and the operators are a shrinking pool of FOGs (nuclear engineering has not been an educational priority over the last 20 years). Operator fatigue is a current issue -- these guys are already getting cited for exceeding mandated weekly maximum work hours. Transformers and lines are maintained by a hodge-podge of third part contractors.

I think it's a formula for disaster. In their defense, ComEd/Exelor haven't had a rate increase for 11 years.

I'm trying to dig into this whole thing a lot deeper: fuel stores on hand, spares, generator maintenance schedule, etc. but I'm getting a lot of resistance - "Who TF are you?" Understandable, but If I'm going to break quarantine and leave the house during a pandemic there's no going back, and I'm not doing that if there's no real hope of keeping things up.
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Old 07-15-2006, 11:25   #4
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Comms depend on a few things like distance and the amount and type of data you wish to transmit. And unless you're into signal flags or smoke signals all depend on some sort of power.

In an emergency you might want to go with HF comms. It can travel as a ground and sky wave and can cover thousands of miles. You might also look into solar power as an alt to electricity or batteries.

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Old 07-15-2006, 11:54   #5
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HAM operators

Any local government that was serious about emergency commo would have contacted the local Ham operator oganization.

Most areas have a chapter somewhere near. They practice on Ham Days where they take their gear out in a field somewhere and set up emergency trasmitting sites.

Any long term planning would take their services into account. One big set-up in the local Emergengy HQ and smaller sets to tie in the outer areas. The central station could be used to tie the local area to the state HQ.

No ham here

Pete

Edit to add - around here they are used near the coast after hurricanes.
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Old 07-15-2006, 12:19   #6
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Ditto what Pete said.
Quote:
"If it hadn't been for Amateur Radio operators, we would not have had communications with other agencies," said Col Joe Spraggins of the Harrison County Emergency Management Agency. "Even with the advancements in our radio technology, ham radio saved the day! Thank you."
Here is the full article.
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2005/10/07/2/
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Old 07-15-2006, 12:29   #7
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You also might check with your local National Guard about the Unified Command Suite.

http://www.afcea.org/SIGNAL/articles...=259&zoneid=63

Last edited by lrd; 07-15-2006 at 12:31.
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Old 07-15-2006, 13:18   #8
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Thanks all.
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Old 07-15-2006, 13:40   #9
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mugwump,

After 9/11 we got a huge grant that lets our dispatch linkup/piggie back/ and or tie into everyone for emergency disaster type stuff. Being that it is Saturday I won't be able to get you much info but I will shoot an e-mail to a guy at work who is our Commo guru and try to get you some more info on the techincal end as well as the finanical end.

Do you have any terrain issues (except curvage of the earth) mountains, cuts, draws, valleys, etc. etc.? Or is it flat land from you the them?

EDIT: Also what do you have to work with (equipment wise)?
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Old 07-15-2006, 15:27   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokin Joe
mugwump,

After 9/11 we got a huge grant that lets our dispatch linkup/piggie back/ and or tie into everyone for emergency disaster type stuff. Being that it is Saturday I won't be able to get you much info but I will shoot an e-mail to a guy at work who is our Commo guru and try to get you some more info on the techincal end as well as the finanical end.

Do you have any terrain issues (except curvage of the earth) mountains, cuts, draws, valleys, etc. etc.? Or is it flat land from you the them?

EDIT: Also what do you have to work with (equipment wise)?
Smokin Joe,

Thanks, this is exactly what I'm looking for. Stuff I should have included originally:

Terrain = pool table flat, distance = 7 miles radius max. No large commercial buildings with typical 2 story residential w/ large trees.

We personally have no radio equipment, none. We can pop for basic transceiver/12v adapter or scanner and we have ways of keeping them charged. We're not looking for reimbursement, the paperwork and hassle are not worth it, I'd stroke out.

Politically, we are off the reservation and difficult to integrate -- civilians w/ other jobs. The guy actually in charge of the backup wells is wildly enthusiastic and helpful but made the potentially fatal error of telling people that he was training us. He is a salt-of-the-earth nice guy but very low on the totem pole and not adept politically. Lawyers and risk managers have gotten involved.

The local gov. is tweaky, and trying to find an angle that just doesn't exist.
We hear we may have to become CERT trained, which would drive me away and probably the others. The gender/racial sensitivity training nearly killed me. Sometimes I think the goal is to get rid of us.

It may be that instead of a proposal for SOP what I should be looking for is an approach to take with the local LEOs.
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Old 07-15-2006, 17:16   #11
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Mugwump - Your issue is not with equipment, it's with a commo plan period. All you need is a well developed municipal emergency plan and somebody with the authority/courage to activate it. Who (specifically) are you going to talk to? What's the existing contact plan for essential personnel? Can/will "they" add your name to it? What you're talking about is probably solved easiest by sending a squad car to pick you up. Not that I'm pointing you away from technology, it just doesn't seem required in your current scenario. Always go with the simplest solution first. When you do build your personal commo plan remember - if you're going to spend the effort, make sure it follows the PACE (primary, alternate, contingency, and emergency) model. (Remember - redundant, not ridiculuous!)

For the rest of it - if you need to talk with people outside of walking distance then you can start getting elaborate. Check out "Guide To Emergency Survival Communications, How to Build And Power Your System", by Dave Ingram, ISBN # 0-916661-05-9. It's a little dated but it gets the ball rolling. The problem with preparing for catastrophy (from a citizen's perspective) is that many municipal systems went to trunked, digital repeater systems post 911. That's really annoying because knowing what's going on (intel) is an important part of reducing risk/exposure. (Analog equipment e.g. Bearcat scanners, won't recieve it and digital is relatively easy to encrypt - one of the reasons Homeland Security or anybody who has a need for privacy likes it.) You will have to check out the popular communications (that's also the name of one) magazines at B&N or BAM to get up to speed. The scanning scene changes/evolves so quickly periodicals are the only way to keep abreast of the technology. You're setting yourself up for a lot of homework. 1st - decide who you want to talk to. CQ CQ CQ just attracts unwanted attention. Then use your software development skills to create a decision tree and acquire/allocate resources to meet requirements. I'm sure this subject will be explored in nauseating detail when TR's "Be Prepared" thread gets to commo. Meantime, this should provide some "food for thought". Peregrino
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Old 07-15-2006, 17:29   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mugwump
Lawyers and risk managers have gotten involved.
Your F**ked right there!

LOL-J/K Get with your Search and Rescue Cooridinator. Skip your County or City level Emergency Services Cooridnators they are political and well, worthless.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:56   #13
mugwump
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrino
Mugwump - Your issue is not with equipment, it's with a commo plan period. All you need is a well developed municipal emergency plan and somebody with the authority/courage to activate it. Who (specifically) are you going to talk to? What's the existing contact plan for essential personnel? Can/will "they" add your name to it? ...
Peregrino,

First, thanks for correctly defining the problem -- that's always more than half the battle. And thanks for the references, I'll start tracking those down.

PACE, is that a military term? What I see everywhere I look is the 'P' part mostly handled ("we'll call you") but nothing done after that. I don't know enough about the local gov's plans to know if that is a bad thing, as that was my personal approach as well: develop a 'primary' plan for each category and then make the loop through them again to make alternate plans. It may be they are simply in the 'primary' planning mode and when those needs are met we'll see alternates put into place.

That said, the more I look into this stuff them more I think we are well and truly buggered if something serious hits. Talk about culture shock; someone who's been running a business for twenty years butting up against departmental, village, township, and county bureaucracies. I'll never complain about the feds again.

An epidemiologist once said to me that pandemics weren't a bad thing at the species level -- they burn off all the dead brush that's been developing on the hillsides. I'm starting to see her point.
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Old 07-16-2006, 07:07   #14
mugwump
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokin Joe
Your F**ked right there!

LOL-J/K Get with your Search and Rescue Cooridinator. Skip your County or City level Emergency Services Cooridnators they are political and well, worthless.
J/K NOT! You are a wise man.

I think I'm dusting off the old strategy I employed when I worked in a giant pharma company: network enough to find the non-idiots in each department, set up an informal organization via mutual back-scratching, and develop our own informal SOPs.

I know, I know. That's how the world goes 'round now, I just forgot the lesson.

I've got a young cop coming over to borrow my AR w/ the POF upper (again...I think he's in love with it). He's from two towns over but I'll ask him to get me a contact with the local LEO comms guys.
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Old 07-16-2006, 07:24   #15
mugwump
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrino
What you're talking about is probably solved easiest by sending a squad car to pick you up.
Peregrino,

I'd thought about that, but I'd really like to ask a few questions before I leave my family for the duration. To be honest, in addition to the issues you identified in your post I'd have to add: I already have our water supply secured. By leaving my family for the benefit of the community I increase the risk to my own family.

If the village only has three gallons of diesel left for the generators with no chance of resupply, the risk:benefit ratio is too high.

mugwump
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