SOCOM Marine Corps Element.

[C/S PHOENIX 10]

Wow where to begin

USMC-Some of the finest SF soldiers I have ever worked with have been former(oop's once a marine always one) marines. Here in my corner of OEF(4th tour, fresh of a recon mission), the marines have always out shined their army counter parts. By design marines understand small battles/warfare and have done a great job of adjusting to the GWOT or at least here they have. As I have stated in other post, the "Q" has put in the magic stuff in the water and continue to push out some of the finest in the world at "getting it". So I have full trust that it will hold true if/when the marines send their boys through the "Q"(my understanding is that the 400 man unit will go through the "Q"). Hats off to the great job the instructors are doing.

Is there a need for additional SF right now? Well depends who you ask. For myself, my team and other teams in this group, the answer would be hell yes, I would love to share the biscuts and gravy(having said that I had to fight a SWC assignment to get back here again). But as I send guys to schools during our TDY trip to the states, all I hear about is the number of guys that are disguntial because they haven't been to the big dance yet. We can do better at cross leveling work load and this will also keep the force strong with proven combat vets.

Ground true for the fathers of SF(old guys), instructors or men that are just out of the loop. The SF world you think you know are quickly becoming a thing of the past. And the only people we can blame is??? That's right team daddies. More and more I read, observe and witness the destruction of the foundation of SF. First I blame the TS, second the flow of money(GWOT dollars), the surge of new kids, and the command. I will try and paint the picture that I see around me, without pushing opsec.

First example the team sergeant: The SFAUC generation, you see a ton of door kicking bleed over onto ruck teams(oops GMV teams now). Being able to shot, move and communicate is the basic standard that my team lives by(it also is the basics for any indig force too) and if you can do it in an urban invoirment(sp) you can do it anywhere. So my team does spend a good chunk of time working those skill sets, but it is only a stepping stone to the end-state. During any ITC train up all I hear is "my team needs more flat range time" or " shooting schools". Stuff along these lines is the normal now days. Again not saying it is wrong but it is just another stone in the pond. Bottom line most guys nowadays want to be door kickers. We aready have a unit for that, I don't think we need 5 more groups worth. Go to selection if that is you steady gig. I have done a ton of unilateral DA stuff here and it is a great time, but I all so know that it is not going to win the war in the long run, the HN will decide that. I see a lot of miss use of the HN, with the man use being the first line of defense for catching IED, or in earliy days the beleive was that if you have HN in your mounted patrol package or even better on your truck the enemy will not shot you. Just the facts I heard it all!!

Dollars; state of the art this or we need that or if we had this we could do that, I hear this crap all the time. As I look in my ruck(yes some teams still use them, even though we have trucks), I think I said this in another post but VIKING(memeber) was spending he hard earned combat pay to buy a new ruck, a couple of guys from our company said why waste your money, we've never that far from our trucks to need a ruck muchless a new one. Back to my ruck, it's right beside me freshly repacked from a mission. let's see, water, chow, NOD's, radio, bino's, ammo, map marker, recon log, signal stuff and a poncho. Well that's it, better check the packing list to make sure I'm forgetting some peice of hightech stuff, nope NOT MUCH HAS CHANGE IN THE LAST 40 YEARS. I watched a team leave a state side range after the day shoot, because they had NVG's, but didn't have peq-2 issued yet(long story), why waste the time the TS said. We hell how did we ever fight a war at night prior to lasers or NVG's.

Command; I once heard a team tasked to place a BP ISO a large op, the team replied that it would take a couple of hours to get the package in place, because it will be slow moving at night, for the HN doesn't have NVG's, higher reply was why are you taking HN? Team reply, that's what SF does, higher's reply not here, HN is for force pro only!!!!!(not my COC)

I know a lot of you men are throwing the BS flag, but I'm telling you it is true. It is not every team or even most, but it is growing. There are a few of us old school guys that are fighting the flow, but only time will tell.

So as you can see some of the special has been lost along the way, I think that if the proper training is conducted marines would be a great addition to the force.

[QRQ 30]

the marines have always out shined their army counter parts.

Who? What? When? Where? How? That's a mighty all encompassing statement pardner!!

[C/S PHOENIX 10]

First of all, lets not pull a news reporter angle on this, my statement was,"Here in my corner of OEF(4th tour, fresh of a recon mission), the marines have always out shined their army counter parts. By design marines understand small battles/warfare and have done a great job of adjusting to the GWOT or at least here they have."

Having said that I'll explain my observations the best I can here.

After 4 trips with some returning to the same location, I've watched conventionial forces roll in and out. The marines accepted their piece of the pie and made it happen. Not tring to down play the army capabilities, just stating numerous observations. Here in this piece of the GWOT, the mission of the conv. guys is not a very rewarding one or even remotely linked to there METL. The ability to adapt from the desire to conduct a BN movement to contact(go with what you know) to, as I read in the paper stablization(sp) operations such as providing security for CA units, escort local officials, present patrols and such. All of the tasks, that as memeber of an Infantry BN from CDR to PVT would make Patton roll over in his grave. Love to give more details, but you understand the deal.

[QRQ 30]

I see the problem as you are comparing conventional marines to conventional Army troops. The subject was SOF and as a result I presumed that the marines ALWAYS outshined SF.

If we wan to go to conventional I can do that too. I associated with the 1st Cav and USMC in I Corps in Vietnam. The marines were good troops and so were the 1st Cav and other army units. I wouldn't put one above the other except for one thing, marines are trigger happy. I was mortared three times by marines at Khe Sahn even though my operation was coordinated with the marines.

[C/S PHOENIX 10]

I see where you're coming from now, I was alittle taken back. You are correct the marines are still quick with the trigger, but once they got there feet on the ground and started seeing the big picture man they made it happen. I would say the quickest of them all are the Ranges sorry to say, I have some great little stories, with not so pretty endings. Just to many young kids with to much freedom.

[C/S PHOENIX 10]

I tell ya, I would love to get up with some of the "fathers" and share some stories. My father(SF Vietnam vet too) and I had such a good time tossing around the no S%^T it really happened stories. You guys would not believe how simular of a war Afg is to Vet. The terrian is much different, but all of the issues are still there.

[NousDefionsDoc]

MarSOC: Just Call Them Marines

Fred L. Schultz

Proceedings, January 2006

The commanding general of the controversial new Marine Corps Special Operations Command--seen here in Iraq, greeting Marines of Gun 6, Battery M, 4th Battalion, 14th Marine Regiment last year—talks to Proceedings.

Not long after he was tapped to lead the first leatherneck contingent into the nation's Special Operations Command, Brigadier Geneal Dennis J. Hejlik was asked by Marine Commandant Michael Hagee if he had settled on a catchy nickname for his troops. General Hejlik nodded.

"Marines," he replied.

Later that day, General Hejlik (pronounced Hey-lik), in an exclusive interview with Proceedings, outlined his plans for the new unit, known as the Marine Corps Special Operations Command (MarSOC).

He also expressed support for the decision to finally make the Marines part of the U.S. Special Operations Command (SOCom), a move long opposed by the Corps. From time to time, he revealed bits and pieces about himself. One thing was evident. He travels light. He showed up with a staff of none.

Over lunch at an Irish restaurant here in Annapolis, the 58-year-old career infantryman laughingly recalled how he found out about the new job. Transferred from California to Quantico, he and his wife, Sandy, were having dinner at a restaurant the night before they were to move into new quarters at the northern Virginia Marine base. His cell phone rang. He took it outside, returned an hour later.

"Where are we going now?" his wife asked. Her husband had been a Marine for 35 years. They had been married for all of those years. She knew something was up.

So long, Quantico. Hello, Camp Lejeune.


An Iowa farm boy, General Hejlik enlisted in the Marines in 1968. He got out four years later as a sergeant and headed off to Minnesota State University, Mankato, just across the border from his home state. On graduation day 1975, he received a diploma and a commission in the Corps.


He has since taken on a wide array of Marine assignments, getting his hands dirty with logistics and weaponry as well as earning a Master's degree from the Naval War College. He served as senior military fellow at the influential Council on Foreign Relations and was two-hatted as deputy commanding general of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force and commanding general of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Brigade in Iraq. Especially important in light of his new assignment, he also was chief of staff and director of the Center for Policy, Training, and Readiness at SOCom, of which his new command will soon be a part.

His tour at SOCom, headquartered in Tampa, Florida, means he's no stranger to the snake-eater community, and his familiarity with the organization no doubt played a role in his selection to head the estimated 2,500-member Marine unit now being organized.

In his most recent combat tour, his brigade took on radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and his militia in the fall of 2004 for control of the Islamic holy city of An Najaf. In this battle, General Hejlik's troops lived up to his widely quoted promise to "whack 'em."

After the shooting stopped, he returned to the command center in Fallujah, where his boss, Lieutenant General James T. Conway, the expeditionary force commander, greeted him as if bestowing knighthood.

"Marines, ladies and gentlemen, soldiers, sailors, airmen—The Lion of Najaf!"

The title stuck, and General Hejlik says it's all General Conway's fault.

When he spoke with us, at lunch and later at Naval Institute headquarters in Beach Hall, the general was relaxed and seemed to enjoy the interview. But he also had a sense of purpose, points he wanted to convey, and a good idea of how he wanted his new command to look, even at this early stage.

The Marines are anything but charter members of the Special Operations Command. For many years after Congress created the force in 1986, the Corps doggedly resisted contributing troops to it.

For those 20 years, a parade of commandants insisted that there was no need for such an affiliation, asserting that all Marines by definition were capable of special operations. The Marine leadership also maintained that the Corps, because of its small size, could not afford to detach any troops to another outfit. The leadership further feared that prized Marine units such as Force Recon would be prime targets for cherry picking if SOCom were licensed to do so.

Behind the Corps' about-face was a growing need to beef up and replenish special operations forces in the midst of draining wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the continuing terrorist threat, along with a strong push for the Marines to get with the program from Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. After a year and a half of negotiations, a meeting on 28 October 2005 among Secretary Rumsfeld, General Hagee, and the SOCom combatant commander, Army General Bryan D. (Doug) Brown, closed the deal.

While General Hejlik believes that senior leaders across the services think the move "is a good thing, good for the country, and good for prosecuting the Global War on Terrorism," it has drawn opposition, both internally and externally. "With continued education," he said, "this will be a win-win for all."

"One of the things that really makes me nervous," General Hejlik said, "is the word 'special.' All Marines are special, all Marines are equal, and all Marines are riflemen." He intends to address this concern, because he doesn't want any Marine being treated differently from a special forces Marine.

He also said he does not expect residual hostility to the move to adversely affect recruiting for his special ops unit. On the contrary, he said, the new command already has an abundance of volunteers.

"The thing we have to be careful with," he stressed, "is that they're Marines, first and foremost." Marines who volunteer must come out of operating forces and will undergo a rigid assessment and selection process. Selectees will train to a standard similar to Army Ranger training. "What exact standard that is has not been fully determined," General Hejlik conceded.

The new command will consist of a Marine special operations regiment of two special forces battalions. A total of nine Marine special operations companies (four on the east coast and five on the west coast) will form the combat core of the command, and each will be from 85 to 110 strong. The force will be split, 75% to 25%, between command, regimental, and battalion headquarters at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, and a battalion headquarters at Camp Pendleton, California.

[NousDefionsDoc]

To complement the special operations companies, two other principal components will be a support unit of radio, communications, and intelligence specialists, and a foreign military training unit, both based at Camp Lejeune.

The foreign training unit will consist of 430 Marines who will train military forces from around the world that lack such training, such as those from some of the poorer central African nations.

Special operations groups will deploy with Marine expeditionary units (MEUs) that already have troops capable of special operations on board amphibious ships. As special operations companies are organized within these groups, the existing Maritime Special Purpose Force—a unit capable of conventional or selected maritime special missions—will be phased out.

Special operations companies will be separable but not separate from expeditionary units, while specific command-and-control relationships are being worked out.

"Right now, it's kind of the best of both worlds," General Hejlik said. "We work with the MEU, but we belong to SOCom as a component. That will fill part of the capability gap. Special operations have suffered a little bit, because the Global War on Terrorism has worn them a little thin."

For those concerned about what all this bodes for the future of Force Reconnaissance, the Marines' elite deep-penetration units and the Corps' answer to special ops in the past, General Hejlik assured that it "will be alive and well. The core of the company will be a Force Recon platoon, which will retain all of its specialized skills, such as deep reconnaissance, advanced communications, precision shooting, and specialized insertion and extraction capabilities."

The general expects his new command to work regularly with Army Rangers and Green Berets. But Marines will be treated as Marines, he said, right down to their gear and weaponry.

"If I'm an 03-21 reconnaissance Marine, I will come with my helmet, my flak jacket, my rucksack, and my warfighting gear. My weapon could be an M-4, M-16A-4, or 9-mm, but if the mission requires special equipment, SOCom will supply it. Hands down, SOCom has the most efficient and proficient acquisition process in the Department of Defense."

Marines have been working with the Special Operations Command since the 1980s, "so this is not a new thing," General Hejlik said.

"In my own experience, the special operations in Najaf and Fallujah were well organized and very interoperable," he emphasized. "The Global War on Terrorism has forced everyone to take a fresh look at the way they fight irregular warfare, which has no rules. This is why special forces have become such sought-after commodities."

General Hejlik said his new command originally was going to be part of a reconnaissance unit that would complement the Special Operations Command. "That's where Det. One [Marine Special Operations Detachment One, set up as proof of the concept that Marines were suited for special operations] came from," he said. But he thinks this new arrangement will be much more effective.

Negotiations prior to the establishment of the Marine Special Operations Command in October were characterized in some press reports as difficult and long. General Hejlik agreed that they were long and acknowledged one major difficulty:

"The difficult part was the cultural aspect. There are always going to be soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen who want things to stay the way they are. They say, 'Let's not change for change's sake.' But this is not the case; change here is necessary. We want to get the Marine Corps fully involved in the.war on terrorism. We want to complement SOCom and fill in some of the gaps. This is the right thing to do. I'm an optimist at heart and by trade, and I think this will work."

General Hejlik learned two major lessons from his most recent service in Iraq. He found that a special operations force borders on the unique, "small in size but packing a great big punch. What such a force brings to the battlefield is much more than just trigger pullers," he said. Lesson two was that today's conventional soldiers or Marines are better trained, better led, and better equipped than any he has seen.

"When you combine conventional war fighters with a Marine special operations team, the culture and the war-fighting ethos are the same, and you've got a force that's unbeatable."

Mr. Schultz is Senior Editor of Proceedings.

Blatantly stolen from GG

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Sounds like an upgraded clone of Carlson's Raiders.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Roger that Sir. I noticed where he discussed the unit for an hour on his cell phone with Buddha or some other diety. I hope his cell phone is more secure than mine.

[Copperhead6]

I feel that they must be seasoned NCOS and Officers the last thing we need in SOCOM is a bunch of yahoo Joes running around that for one is going to only end in disappointment and number 2 it is also going to create some drama for us as a whole. if we do decide ot take the Marines "under our wing" if you will i would make a reccomendation that they come froma unit such as FAST Company which is a group of specialty Marines they are highly Trained in CQB and Small unit tactics that to me would make the best use of the Marines and the greatest advantage for us as a whole.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by Copperhead6

I feel that they must be seasoned NCOS and Officers the last thing we need in SOCOM is a bunch of yahoo Joes running around that for one is going to only end in disappointment and number 2 it is also going to create some drama for us as a whole. if we do decide ot take the Marines "under our wing" if you will i would make a reccomendation that they come froma unit such as FAST Company which is a group of specialty Marines they are highly Trained in CQB and Small unit tactics that to me would make the best use of the Marines and the greatest advantage for us as a whole.

Worked quite a bit with Marines have you?

[skibum]

FAST may have more/better training in CQB, prisoner control, room clearing, etc., but the majority of trigger pullers there are prives and lance coconuts fresh out of SOI, NOT "seasoned NCOs." The seasoned NCOs are filling NCO billits, so there aren't that many. Now, I understand (2nd - 3rd hand info) that there are more seasoned, experienced Marines and corpsmen in the Force Recon Companies, and it sounds like there will be a "Force Recon" platoon in each assault company, so maybe that's what you are referring to.

I think there will be a fairly long and interesting development process, and I wish I could be part of it. I bet, though, that what the force eventually shakes out to be is not what it is on paper right now. Heck, it might not even last; there are plenty of senior Marines who just hate the whole concept. I think it's a fairly decent second step, the MARSOC DET-1 being the first. I think the final product (if any) will resemble this outfit as much as this outfit resembles Det-1.

[skibum]

And, of course, he's repeating the line, "all Marines are special, all Marines are equal." I won't contradict him, but does he think my career E-3 radioman (a grunt-type, not a comm-type) can replace the engine on a Harrier? I'm sure, that as trained observers, most here have noticed that the Corps put a General in charge of the outfit, not a lance criminal or boot Lt. And the core of the assault companies will be a "Force Recon" platoon, not a graves registration platoon, or a platoon of BAMs from the 3rd gynecological regiment. I'll stop before I get really going.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

[QUOTE=Copperhead6]I feel that they must be seasoned NCOS and Officers the last thing we need in SOCOM is a bunch of yahoo Joes running around that for one is going to only end in disappointment and number 2 it is also going to create some drama for us as a whole. QUOTE]

So if I correctly understand you, you would prefer to have a more seasoned and mature troop like the one that has developed this site:


copperhead6 my space web page