SOCOM Marine Corps Element.

[The Reaper]

Here is a freebie, to help with one of your questions:

special reconnaissance — Reconnaissance and surveillance actions conducted as a special operation in hostile, denied, or politically sensitive environments to collect or verify information of strategic or operational significance, employing military capabilities not normally found in conventional forces. These actions provide an additive capability for commanders and supplement other conventional reconnaissance and surveillance actions. Also called SR. (JP 3-05)

reconnaissance — A mission undertaken to obtain, by visual observation or other detection methods, information about the activities and resources of an enemy or potential enemy, or to secure data concerning the meteorological, hydrographic, or geographic characteristics of a particular area. Also called RECON.

SR is strategic, or operational reconnaissance. Conventional recon is tactical.

Which do you think Marines do, vs. SF?

TR

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by D9

Just a comment on the observation regarding the Marine mindset being incompatible w/ the SF mission. There is a relatively large contingent of Marines with me in the course, myself included, and all seem to be integrating quite nicely and accounting for themselves quite well in training. By my last count, we have more former jugheads in Lang School than we do Battboys.

I would agree that the USMC line units are dominated by a culture that has some of the qualities described above (having served in one for 4 years). But I don't see any reason that if a select group is taken out of that environment they cannot adapt themselves to the new mission, even if that means cultural changes within the unit.

From what I've seen being here on Bragg, the 82nd isn't a whole lot less rigid and dogmatic than the USMC, if at all. I don't personally see why Marines would be more incapable of changing their culture to fit the SOCOM mission, than Airborne soldiers joinging SF would have changing their mindset to fit in at group.

They haven't been stressed yet.

The proof is in the doing. I see it ever day. SEALs, LEOs, Rangers, Marines, etc. trying to teach/operate on host nation rules. It's not they can't do it, it's they don't. Anybody can do it. If they have the proper mindset, training, desire, etc. But very few do do it. Why is that? Because it's not for everybody. Just like hitting the beach isn't for everybody. Each group has a culture and it attracts like minded people. That is the essence of its efficiency.

Believe me guys when I tell you, we've been down this road before. Back in the 80s when FID was the Mission and the only Mission, everybody tried to get in on it. I even had to do a Gabe Team for Teddy K because the guys at Lejune told him they could do FID and he wanted to see for himself. Now how a Gabe Team proved to him anything, I have no idea. But it did. All because the USMC up and said, "We can do FID." Well they couldn't.

It is like 7th Group going to the swimming pool for a morning then claiming to be ARC experts. Marines, Rangers, etc are good because they are all alike. It makes them move and think and act as one. SF A Teams are good because they are all different, as are the members. Out of 12 guys, somebody knows how to do whatever needs to be done. SF Teams promote that individuality, as long as you stay within the limits of teamwork. Other units punish it. We do of course, move and think and act as one, when it is time. The old joke about the color of the wife's panties is not far from the truth.

Speaking the language isn't the half of it. It is not just language, it is cultural immersion. It is immersion into the enemy and the good guys. It is treating the little people as equals and if warranted, betters. It is a subordination of ego. It is the best guy in charge, not the ranking guy. It is surgery with a scalpel as opposed to butchery with an axe. (Not saying there isn't a time and place for butchering with an axe.) You almost become a member of the host nation. Almost. they have to truly believe that you care. And the only way to do that is to actually care. Ever wonder why I stayed in the AO after I left the service?

This would work fine if they would listen and admit what they don't know. My guess is they won't.

One thing to keep in the back of your mind: There is only one unit in the entire US arsenal in which you will see a NCO commanding a company or perhaps even a battalion. And most of the time, doing it by proxy in a second or even third language through a HN counter-part. There is no stick usually, and often no carrot. The troop does it by guile and cunning and honesty and caring. And that's what FID is all about.

For you Xers. If you can't or won't do FID, seek life elsewhere.

[D9 (RIP)]

Great information, and it makes a lot of sense to me. Appreciate the time taken for the response.

[BMT (RIP)]

NDD hit the nail on the head!!

Let me ask you a question toget you thinking on the right track.

1. Why was the first A- Team sent to VN to work with the 'Yards successful?

BMT

[Bill Harsey]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

They haven't been stressed yet.

The proof is in the doing. I see it ever day. SEALs, LEOs, Rangers, Marines, etc. trying to teach/operate on host nation rules. It's not they can't do it, it's they don't. Anybody can do it. If they have the proper mindset, training, desire, etc. But very few do do it. Why is that? Because it's not for everybody. Just like hitting the beach isn't for everybody. Each group has a culture and it attracts like minded people. That is the essence of its efficiency.

Believe me guys when I tell you, we've been down this road before. Back in the 80s when FID was the Mission and the only Mission, everybody tried to get in on it. I even had to do a Gabe Team for Teddy K because the guys at Lejune told him they could do FID and he wanted to see for himself. Now how a Gabe Team proved to him anything, I have no idea. But it did. All because the USMC up and said, "We can do FID." Well they couldn't.

It is like 7th Group going to the swimming pool for a morning then claiming to be ARC experts. Marines, Rangers, etc are good because they are all alike. It makes them move and think and act as one. SF A Teams are good because they are all different, as are the members. Out of 12 guys, somebody knows how to do whatever needs to be done. SF Teams promote that individuality, as long as you stay within the limits of teamwork. Other units punish it. We do of course, move and think and act as one, when it is time. The old joke about the color of the wife's panties is not far from the truth.

Speaking the language isn't the half of it. It is not just language, it is cultural immersion. It is immersion into the enemy and the good guys. It is treating the little people as equals and if warranted, betters. It is a subordination of ego. It is the best guy in charge, not the ranking guy. It is surgery with a scalpel as opposed to butchery with an axe. (Not saying there isn't a time and place for butchering with an axe.) You almost become a member of the host nation. Almost. they have to truly believe that you care. And the only way to do that is to actually care. Ever wonder why I stayed in the AO after I left the service?

This would work fine if they would listen and admit what they don't know. My guess is they won't.

One thing to keep in the back of your mind: There is only one unit in the entire US arsenal in which you will see a NCO commanding a company or perhaps even a battalion. And most of the time, doing it by proxy in a second or even third language through a HN counter-part. There is no stick usually, and often no carrot. The troop does it by guile and cunning and honesty and caring. And that's what FID is all about.

For you Xers. If you can't or won't do FID, seek life elsewhere.

I've been trying to figure out what these guys do different and how they get it done since early 1980 something (and for anyone new here) starting with the work I was doing for the guy who ran all clandestine operations for the OSS.

In case anyone missed NDD's post, I quoted it again. Pay attention to what all the other Quiet Professionals here wrote too.

If this information was for sale, you couldn't afford it.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by D9

Just a comment on the observation regarding the Marine mindset being incompatible w/ the SF mission. There is a relatively large contingent of Marines with me in the course, myself included, and all seem to be integrating quite nicely and accounting for themselves quite well in training. By my last count, we have more former jugheads in Lang School than we do Battboys.

when i was referring to the Marine Corps culture, i was referring to a corporate entity...individually, yes, there are some very adaptive Marines...i went through training group with three of them...ran into a couple of them a few years later and one of them admitted to having trouble fitting back into the Corps when he returned from SFQC...secondly, i believe the term you are searching for is jarhead, not jughead...

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by D9

Just a comment on the observation regarding the Marine mindset being incompatible w/ the SF mission. There is a relatively large contingent of Marines with me in the course, myself included, and all seem to be integrating quite nicely and accounting for themselves quite well in training. By my last count, we have more former jugheads in Lang School than we do Battboys.

I would agree that the USMC line units are dominated by a culture that has some of the qualities described above (having served in one for 4 years). But I don't see any reason that if a select group is taken out of that environment they cannot adapt themselves to the new mission, even if that means cultural changes within the unit.

From what I've seen being here on Bragg, the 82nd isn't a whole lot less rigid and dogmatic than the USMC, if at all. I don't personally see why Marines would be more incapable of changing their culture to fit the SOCOM mission, than Airborne soldiers joinging SF would have changing their mindset to fit in at group.

Did you ever consider that the ones who leave the Corps (or the 82nd, or the Batts) for the SFQC are the ones who have different goals, vision, and way of looking at things?

Maybe you were SF guys all along who, for whatever reason, just started off in a different place?

TR

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

SR is strategic, or operational reconnaissance. Conventional recon is tactical.

For those not familiar with the terms “strategic” or “tactical”; the term tactical when used in this context deals with the outcome of a battle. Hence all conventional units employ tactical reconnaissance. Strategic, or “special” reconnaissance deals with the outcome of a war.

Army Special Forces are the only SOF units trained to access denied areas worldwide and stay there indefinitely without external support requirements.

Special Reconnaissance (SR). These are reconnaissance and surveillance actions conducted as a special operation in hostile, denied, or politically sensitive environments to collect or verify information of strategic or operational significance, employing military capabilities not normally found in conventional forces. These actions provide an additive capability for commanders and supplement other conventional reconnaissance and surveillance actions. Even with today's sophisticated long-range sensors and overhead platforms, some information can be obtained only by visual observation or other collection methods in the target area. SOF's highly developed capabilities of gaining access to denied and hostile areas, worldwide communications, and specialized aircraft and sensors enable SR against targets inaccessible to other forces or assets. Activities within SR include the following:

1. Environmental Reconnaissance. These are operations conducted to collect and report critical hydrographic, geological, and meteorological information.

2. Armed Reconnaissance. These are operations that involve locating and attacking targets of opportunity, e.g., adversary materiel, personnel, and facilities in assigned general areas or along assigned LOCs. Armed reconnaissance is not conducted for the purpose of attacking specific identified targets.

3. Target and Threat Assessment. These are operations conducted to detect, identify, locate, and assess a target to determine the most effective employment of weapons. This type of operation might include the assessment of the potential effects (to include collateral damage) of a strike or an attack on a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear, or toxic industrial material site.

4. Poststrike Reconnaissance. These operations are undertaken for the purpose of gathering information used to measure results of a strike.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by lksteve

when i was referring to the Marine Corps culture, i was referring to a corporate entity...individually, yes, there are some very adaptive Marines...i went through training group with three of them...ran into a couple of them a few years later and one of them admitted to having trouble fitting back into the Corps when he returned from SFQC...secondly, i believe the term you are searching for is jarhead, not jughead...

LOL - he was one. Jug, jar - whatever it takes. LOL

[QRQ 30]

Folks: I apologize if this is off subject but I think it an appropriate spot and time to post the words of CSM Bill Edge, RIP

"What is so Special About Special Forces"
By: Command Sergeant Major William E. Edge

Whats so special about Special Forces? I've been asked that question for twenty years and answering it for thirteen. To me, this is whats so special about Special Forces:

It's the only combat unit in the Army where enlisted men can and do command troops, in schools as teachers, in guerrilla bands as organizers and leaders, in foreign armies as advisors and leaders. Where else can staff sergeants be assigned as platoon leaders, sergeants first class as company commanders and master sergeants as batallion commanders?

You dont think three companies of 150 men each and a 40 man scout platoon is a battalion? Why, because they were "Yards, or Cambodians, or Nungs"?

Hogwash. Did you ever hear of the Mike Force? Delta? Sigma? Omega? CCN? Did you ever hear of the Snake teams or the States teams? All of these were led by US Special Forces men and NOT by the bare-chested, snake-eating, guitar-playing, media-induced image of the Green Berets, God-how I hate that term applied to men.

Damn it, a green beret is a hat and nothing but a hat! Special Forces are SOLDIERS! The Special Forces I refer to are the men who worked from Khe San, Ashau, Phu Bai, Kontum, Dak To, Lang Vie and a thousand other places that were denied to the enemy because 12 or 6 US soldiers lived there and dared "Charlie " to come and take it.

And He did, and other Special Forces soldiers and their "Yards, Cambodes, and Nungs" in the Mike force went and fell on him and waged a gut-twisting war on him, no quarter asked, none given. War waged at the bottom of the line--No big 175s, no 8 inchers for cover, Air when you could get it, and we got plenty, usually called in by Sergeants, those lovely big HOBOS and the sleek fast movers all bringing death from the sky to our common enemy.

Special Forces NCOs played such roles. Sixteen Medals Of Honor, more than 50 DSCs. 50% of them posthumously awarded were a partial reward.

The heart of the SF group is the A detachment. 10 Sergeants and two officers. a self contained, do anything group of men. And yet they are the first to tell you it cannot be done with out the support of those unsung heros who man the supply, commo, personnel, psy war, civic action and flight organizations farther back.

You see it really is a team, and the A team is only a part, the blade of the ax. But it takes the whole ax to cut the tree, and thats the real SF, the whole ax. Officers, good men with blisters and cuts from stringing wire, sunburn and bug bites from filling sandbags, bruised shoulders from firing BARs and M1919A6s [oldies but goodies] right there in the mud and blood with their troops.

These officers wore oak leaves and bars, but you could not tell because their shirts were hanging on a tree limb while they sweated with the troops. BlueMax, Splash, Iron Mike, the Greek, Roger P, Bucky, and a blue-eyed black captain with steel nerves were leaders you could respect and never forget.

Hard-eyed Majors who personally led a relief party to rescue a wounded sergeant first class, cut off, lost and pursued by the remnants of an NVA company, and brought him out alive, shot but alive. Lean and mean "slick" pilots who stood that groaning "HUEY" on it's tail to load wounded "Yards" or yanked you out on a McQuire rig for a ride you would not forget. And soft voiced chaplains giving comfort to the dying in a bloody mortar pit in the drenching rain, to a man whose God was probably a spirit.

And the Medics, Ah, those Medics, the eighth wonder of the world. Their routine feats read too much like fiction, but they were more than that, they were also superb riflemen, scouts, killers as well as healers.

That was Special Forces; it wasn't all Sporting Bar and Saigon. Rather it was hard-eyed reality and too much death. We had our crooks and drunks and quitters all to our shame. We also had our GIANTS, and by God, most were enlisted men, there because they wanted to be there. Professionals, now semi-dormant, training as force multipliers, honing their skills. They are few in number but strong in mind and spitit. They await the next call.

Oh, how I will miss them, their friendship, respect, their scorn and hate. Its all part of being special. Mr. Webster defines Special as "distinguished by some uncommon quality, designed or selected for some particular purpose, having an individual character, noteworthy, unique."

And remember, go to any division in the US Army and count the right shoulder patches, you will see that Special Forces cadred out a lot of top notch talent to the rest of the Army. I'm sure you get the point.

Anyway that's how I answer the question.

o Command Sergeant Major
o William E. Edge
o USAJFKCSW

The smilie is a tear in my eye, not a boohoo tear.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

They haven't been stressed yet.

The proof is in the doing. I see it ever day. SEALs, LEOs, Rangers, Marines, etc. trying to teach/operate on host nation rules. It's not they can't do it, it's they don't. Anybody can do it. If they have the proper mindset, training, desire, etc. But very few do do it. Why is that? Because it's not for everybody. Just like hitting the beach isn't for everybody. Each group has a culture and it attracts like minded people. That is the essence of its efficiency.

Believe me guys when I tell you, we've been down this road before. Back in the 80s when FID was the Mission and the only Mission, everybody tried to get in on it. I even had to do a Gabe Team for Teddy K because the guys at Lejune told him they could do FID and he wanted to see for himself. Now how a Gabe Team proved to him anything, I have no idea. But it did. All because the USMC up and said, "We can do FID." Well they couldn't.

It is like 7th Group going to the swimming pool for a morning then claiming to be ARC experts. Marines, Rangers, etc are good because they are all alike. It makes them move and think and act as one. SF A Teams are good because they are all different, as are the members. Out of 12 guys, somebody knows how to do whatever needs to be done. SF Teams promote that individuality, as long as you stay within the limits of teamwork. Other units punish it. We do of course, move and think and act as one, when it is time. The old joke about the color of the wife's panties is not far from the truth.

Speaking the language isn't the half of it. It is not just language, it is cultural immersion. It is immersion into the enemy and the good guys. It is treating the little people as equals and if warranted, betters. It is a subordination of ego. It is the best guy in charge, not the ranking guy. It is surgery with a scalpel as opposed to butchery with an axe. (Not saying there isn't a time and place for butchering with an axe.) You almost become a member of the host nation. Almost. they have to truly believe that you care. And the only way to do that is to actually care. Ever wonder why I stayed in the AO after I left the service?

This would work fine if they would listen and admit what they don't know. My guess is they won't.

One thing to keep in the back of your mind: There is only one unit in the entire US arsenal in which you will see a NCO commanding a company or perhaps even a battalion. And most of the time, doing it by proxy in a second or even third language through a HN counter-part. There is no stick usually, and often no carrot. The troop does it by guile and cunning and honesty and caring. And that's what FID is all about.

For you Xers. If you can't or won't do FID, seek life elsewhere.

Great post, NDD. Enjoyed your insight.

I see you learned from your experience with the boat assault.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

LOL - he was one. Jug, jar - whatever it takes. LOL

jug, jar, bushel basket...????

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by BMT

NDD hit the nail on the head!!

Let me ask you a question toget you thinking on the right track.

1. Why was the first A- Team sent to VN to work with the 'Yards successful?

BMT

Undying loyalty.

The SF men there were the first outside people in the their history to treat them as equals.

[Ambush Master]

Originally Posted by Achilles

Undying loyalty.

The SF men there were the first outside people in the their history to treat them as equals.

And where might you have learned that tidbit ?!?!

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by Ambush Master

And where might you have learned that tidbit ?!?!

Hmm...