SOCOM Marine Corps Element. - Page 2

Tubbs · 06-25-2005, 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc

You need to do some more research.

Doc

I'm going off the wonderfull training I recieved in Ops school. Some of it may be propoganda, but that's how it is on paper as far as I was taught. I'm not here thump my chest or beat a drum for the Corps. Everybody always wants to say that they're are the best and its not in my realm to make that call or to debate it (at least in the world of Special Forces).

D9 (RIP) · 06-25-2005, 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by lksteve

i am not sure the Marine Corps culture is compatible with the mission...

Just a comment on the observation regarding the Marine mindset being incompatible w/ the SF mission. There is a relatively large contingent of Marines with me in the course, myself included, and all seem to be integrating quite nicely and accounting for themselves quite well in training. By my last count, we have more former jugheads in Lang School than we do Battboys.

I would agree that the USMC line units are dominated by a culture that has some of the qualities described above (having served in one for 4 years). But I don't see any reason that if a select group is taken out of that environment they cannot adapt themselves to the new mission, even if that means cultural changes within the unit.

From what I've seen being here on Bragg, the 82nd isn't a whole lot less rigid and dogmatic than the USMC, if at all. I don't personally see why Marines would be more incapable of changing their culture to fit the SOCOM mission, than Airborne soldiers joinging SF would have changing their mindset to fit in at group.

**Ambush Master** · 06-25-2005, 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbs

Force Recon is set up to operate reconassance missions that no other branch of SF is designed to do.

Sorry here sport, but QRQ is dead on target !! THE Recon that SF can/HAS/IS providing is way far out there beyond USMC !!! Why ?? We go out with the "Little People" that are indigenous to the theater !!! We get closer and provide far more accurate and timely intel than any USMC unit could ever dream of.

As has been suggested, check out the writings of Maj. John Plaster, much of what he tells about SOG, is being practiced today !!!

Later
Martin

Doc · 06-25-2005, 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbs

I'm going off the wonderfull training I recieved in Ops school. Some of it may be propoganda, but that's how it is on paper as far as I was taught. I'm not here thump my chest or beat a drum for the Corps. Everybody always wants to say that they're are the best and its not in my realm to make that call or to debate it (at least in the world of Special Forces).

No chest thumping here, just a realistic observation.

Doc

QRQ 30 · 06-25-2005, 20:39

D9: I appreciate your post. I have had some contact with marine enlisted men in DLI as well as Vietnam, 29 Palms and Camp Geiger, Here is my assessment of the growth of a marine. The recruit is issued a lobotomy along with his first haircut. (Don't quit now). His head is filled with all of the Gung Ho propaganda he can hold, BTW: You are right the same process was and probably still is part of the two week airborne orientation during reception into the 82d. As the marine grows his lobotomy starts to heal. By the time a marine becomes a staff NCO he is totally squared away and matured. These are the stock from which the SOCOM marines will be drawn -- I hope. I haven't met a marine Staff NCO I didn't respect and usually like.

This is just my personal take and I'd bet that officers go through the same metamorphisis as they progress to field grade.

Doc · 06-25-2005, 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by D9

Just a comment on the observation regarding the Marine mindset being incompatible w/ the SF mission. There is a relatively large contingent of Marines with me in the course, myself included, and all seem to be integrating quite nicely and accounting for themselves quite well in training. By my last count, we have more former jugheads in Lang School than we do Battboys.

I would agree that the USMC line units are dominated by a culture that has some of the qualities described above (having served in one for 4 years). But I don't see any reason that if a select group is taken out of that environment they cannot adapt themselves to the new mission, even if that means cultural changes within the unit.

From what I've seen being here on Bragg, the 82nd isn't a whole lot less rigid and dogmatic than the USMC, if at all. I don't personally see why Marines would be more incapable of changing their culture to fit the SOCOM mission, than Airborne soldiers joinging SF would have changing their mindset to fit in at group.

No one is saying they are incompatible. Stick with what you know.

Doc

Tubbs · 06-25-2005, 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambush Master

Sorry here sport, but QRQ is dead on target !! THE Recon that SF can/HAS/IS providing is way far out there beyond USMC !!! Why ?? We go out with the "Little People" that are indigenous to the theater !!! We get closer and provide far more accurate and timely intel than any USMC unit could ever dream of.

As has been suggested, check out the writings of Maj. John Plaster, much of what he tells about SOG, is being practiced today !!!

Later
Martin

All I said is that other branches of SF are not DESIGNED for that mission. Not that they are not CAPABLE of doing it. And what you are talking about sounds to me more like infiltration and subversion missions, not strict recon and surveillance.
I will check out the recomemed literature. Always excited to assimilate new knowledge.

**The Reaper** · 06-25-2005, 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbs

All I said is that other branches of SF are not DESIGNED for that mission. Not that they are not CAPABLE of doing it. And what you are talking about sounds to me more like infiltration and subversion missions, not strict recon and surveillance.
I will check out the recomemed literature. Always excited to assimilate new knowledge.

Tubbs:

I already told you once to do some research.

Do not post again until you can tell me the five doctrinal missions of SF, the difference between SF and SOF, and why "infiltration" is not a mission.

I hope that your ignorance is not reflective of your inattention to detail.

TR

Doc · 06-25-2005, 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbs

All I said is that other branches of SF are not DESIGNED for that mission. Not that they are not CAPABLE of doing it. And what you are talking about sounds to me more like infiltration and subversion missions, not strict recon and surveillance.
I will check out the recomemed literature. Always excited to assimilate new knowledge.

You have no idea.

Doc

**Razor** · 06-25-2005, 20:54

This is very true, D9. However, I think you'd be hearing the same response from guys here if this new FID unit were being pulled from the 82d. I have no doubt that there are Marines out there that would be a perfect fit in this role, just as there would be conventional soldiers, airmen and sailors that would thrive in the environment. As a whole force, however, the USMC in general (or the 82d, or the 3d ID, or the crew of a destroyer) aren't set up in personnel manning, equipment, or training to be experts in FID. Remember that yourself and the former Marines currently doing so well in the Q were specially selected, not just randomly picked from a line unit. Are there enough Marines out there possessing the attributes that this new unit will require for success to fill the unit? I guess we'll soon see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by D9

Just a comment on the observation regarding the Marine mindset being incompatible w/ the SF mission. There is a relatively large contingent of Marines with me in the course, myself included, and all seem to be integrating quite nicely and accounting for themselves quite well in training. By my last count, we have more former jugheads in Lang School than we do Battboys.

I would agree that the USMC line units are dominated by a culture that has some of the qualities described above (having served in one for 4 years). But I don't see any reason that if a select group is taken out of that environment they cannot adapt themselves to the new mission, even if that means cultural changes within the unit.

From what I've seen being here on Bragg, the 82nd isn't a whole lot less rigid and dogmatic than the USMC, if at all. I don't personally see why Marines would be more incapable of changing their culture to fit the SOCOM mission, than Airborne soldiers joinging SF would have changing their mindset to fit in at group.

Tubbs · 06-25-2005, 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Tubbs:

I already told you once to do some research.

Do not post again until you can tell me the five doctrinal missions of SF, the difference between SF and SOF, and why "infiltration" is not a mission.

I hope that your ignorance is not reflective of your inattention to detail.

TR

Foreign Internal Defense
Unconventional Warfare
Special Reconaissance
Direct Action
Counter Terrorism

Special Operations Forces are forces that are trained and capable of acting in Unconventional roles in order to accomplish one or more of those five doctrinal missions, or in order to support special forces in one of their mission roles.

"Infiltration" would be inappropriate in this context due to the fact that the mission described would fall under Foreign Internal Defense (which is different) under your doctrinal roles.

**The Reaper** · 06-25-2005, 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbs

Foreign Internal Defense
Unconventional Warfare
Special Reconaissance
Direct Action
Counter Terrorism

One of three so far.

Additional questions, to make it a total of five.

What is the difference between SF and SOF?

Why is "infiltration" is not a mission?

What is the proper definition of Special Reconnaissance?

How does it differ from the reconnaissance that the USMC performs?

Then we will reexamine your earlier statements.

TR

Tubbs · 06-25-2005, 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

One of three so far.

Additional questions, to make it a total of five.

What is the difference between SF and SOF?

Why is "infiltration" is not a mission?

What is the proper definition of Special Reconnaissance?

How does it differ from the reconnaissance that the USMC performs?

Then we will reexamine your earlier statements.

TR

Special Reconaissance takes place before any military action as a preparation for that action. The recon that FR provides is generally in conjunction with active military action.

I realize now that some of my terms may have been missused in this context. From now on I will take the time to ensure I am using the correct terminology based on your OE.

**The Reaper** · 06-25-2005, 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubbs

Special Reconaissance takes place before any military action as a preparation for that action. The recon that FR provides is generally in conjunction with active military action.

I realize now that some of my terms may have been missused in this context. From now on I will take the time to ensure I am using the correct terminology based on your OE.

You are wrong, and not for the first time.

Try again, you still owe four good answers.

Next time you are told to stand down and do some research, I hope that you do.

SF (Special Forces, an ARMY organization) does not leap before they look. Think about it.

TR

Tubbs · 06-25-2005, 21:28

Solid copy.