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Old 02-11-2004, 12:37   #16
Smokin Joe
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Re: Best Insurgent Leader

Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Who is the best insurgent leader in history? You can list a small group if you can't pick one. Why did you pick who you picked?
Col. Wild Bill Donovan.

Why? B/C he and his orgainzation were pivitol in winning WWII.
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Old 02-11-2004, 13:31   #17
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Smile

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Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Apparently not because the Quiet Professionals hunted him down and killed him.

The Team Sergeant


(And from what I understand Che went yelling kicking and screaming like the true coward he really was.)
Everybody dies and not usually by a method of their own chosing. Ghandi was killed by a couple of pissed off Hindu brothers.
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Old 02-11-2004, 14:07   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by CRad
Everybody dies and not usually by a method of their own chosing. Ghandi was killed by a couple of pissed off Hindu brothers.
I do not see a correlation between the two or your point.

One insurgent leader was killed by a couple of disenfranchised Hindu fanatics the other insurgent leader was hunted down by the most powerful nation on the planet because he murdered and tortured men, women and children.

The end does not justify the means.

Che is right up there with OBL as far as insurgent leaders are concerned. When OBL is captured I’m fairly sure he’ll meet the same fate as Che.

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Old 02-11-2004, 14:09   #19
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Wink Using Airborne Lawyer's Def...

And some help from my friendly neighborhood 7th Grp guys I'll give some thoughts. (It's not cheating if all I did was ask questions to which general replies were given)

Martin Luther King and Louis Farrakhan can be considered insurrgents.

Since I brought Che's name up...Groups that have followed his philosophy have been singularly unsuccessful. Daniel Ortega was a loser because he was ultimately unsuccessful. The Contras were a success because they not only overthrew the Sandinistas but also brought some democracy to NIcaragua. No names there, but as a group.

Baader-Meinhoff - losers
Red Brigade - Losers
Shining Path - Probably losers, although, that might depend on who you ask.

With Castro, was he following Che, was Che following him or was it a joint effort so is it a success story or not. Or do we have to wait and see what happens after Castro dies to see if he was a success. With Ghandi we know that his country stayed intact after his death.

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Insurgent forces are groups that conduct irregular or unconventional warfare within the borders of their country in order to undermine or overthrow a constituted government or civil authority. The distinction between terrorists and insurgents is often blurred because of the tactics employed by each.
My study group also said General Washington and others in the Revolutionary War couldn't be considered insurgents. Not even Roger's Rangers in spite of their tactics.

Since this is North Carolina we didn't discuss the War of Northern Aggression.
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Old 02-11-2004, 14:12   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Team Sergeant
I do not see a correlation between the two or your point.


Che is right up there with OBL as far as insurgent leaders are concerned. When OBL is captured I’m fairly sure he’ll meet the same fate as Che.

TS
Which is why I added the smile at the top of my post. I agree that Che and Ghandi don't add up and that Che is a bad guy within boundries of what that term means at my house.
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Old 02-11-2004, 14:30   #21
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Baader-Meinhoff and the Red Brigades were not insurgents, they were simple terrorist groups, they had no plan for after they won. SL is a Maoist group, they do not follow Che's line.

MLK and Farakook can't be considered insurgents because they do not use violence, same for Ghandi, Jesus, etc.

I would say the founders were a classic case of an insurgency. Began politically and pretty much followed the protracted war theory with escalation into conventional war. Developed safe areas, used unconventional war,popular and external support, shadow government, all of it. Your study group is wrong.

I don't think I would classify Donovan as an insurgent. He was an unconventional warrior operating within the confines of the greater war. A component if you will.

I doubt Che ever read Ghandi. He turned radical about 26 and linked up with Fidel because of lack of action in Argentina, Bolivia and Guatemala. He was reading Marx and after he met Fidel, Marti. He was pretty much apolitical before Guatemala.

The difference between the deaths of Ghandi and Che is significant and they have nothing to do with each other IMO. Ghandi was assassinated by individuals, probably crazy and probably simply because he was famous.

Che was hunted down and killed BECAUSE he was an insurgent, just as UBL probably will be.
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Old 02-11-2004, 14:41   #22
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Agree and Disagree

Baader and Red Brigade while being terrorist were still influenced by Che as was SL. Regardless, his tactics are those of losers.

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conduct irregular or unconventional warfare within the borders of their country in order to undermine or overthrow a constituted government or civil authority
With that in mind, why can't MLK and Farrakhan be considered insurgents? Does there have to be violence for a group to be called insurgents? What to call it when there's a peaceful take-over? A bloodless coup?


Why would the revlutionaries be insurgents rather than revolutionists. They weren't trying to change England; they were trying to break off from it.
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Old 02-11-2004, 14:46   #23
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conduct irregular or unconventional warfare
Have you ever heard of bloodless warfare?

Peaceful take - over? Election results - Dems losing Congress and the WH.

Give me an example of a bloodless coup - I'll guarrantee somebody died, might have been before the actual event, but somebody died.
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Old 02-11-2004, 14:48   #24
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Back to the topic at hand...
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Old 02-11-2004, 14:52   #25
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people died in the fight for civil rights, but enough.

Ok, MLK, Ghandi, Jesus, Mohhamed and Wm Donovon have been ruled out as insurgent leaders.

One other thing - I don't think you can call OBL an insurgent. He's a terrorist.
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Old 02-11-2004, 15:06   #26
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What about Col. Don Blackburn?
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Old 02-11-2004, 15:14   #27
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People died, but they didn't kill them.

UBL is an insurgent that uses terrorism as almost his exclusive weapon. However, he has a political plan, he has used other forms of unconventional warfare and I would estimate he sees the current conflict as an extention of the fight against the Russians.

Revolutionary, rebel, Leftist guerrilla, Marxist insurgent, feedom fighter, right-wing death squads, separatists - all amateur terms as far as I'm concerned. They are all insurgents, then you define the nature of the insurgency, then the strategy they use.

The founders were insurgents, first reformist then secessionist. They did try to change England's manner of ruling the colonies before they went to the hills. Same with the South.

If you're going to call Giap, I think you have to define what period.

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned Mao, Marulanda, Begin (Against the Brits), Castro (Che wasn't the leader in Cuba), Bolivar, Marti, Lenin, Khomeini (against the Shah), Collins, etc. Not saying I would pick them, but nobody has mentioned them.

Don't be callin' Jesus no insurgent.
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Old 02-11-2004, 15:15   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by goat
What about Col. Don Blackburn?
What about him? Are you asking or telling? LOL
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Old 02-11-2004, 15:29   #29
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Re: Agree and Disagree

Quote:
Originally posted by CRad
Quote:
Insurgent forces are groups that conduct irregular or unconventional warfare within the borders of their country in order to undermine or overthrow a constituted government or civil authority. The distinction between terrorists and insurgents is often blurred because of the tactics employed by each.
My study group also said General Washington and others in the Revolutionary War couldn't be considered insurgents. Not even Roger's Rangers in spite of their tactics.
Quote:
Originally posted by CRad
Why would the revolutionaries be insurgents rather than revolutionists. They weren't trying to change England; they were trying to break off from it.
Separatist insurgencies are still insurgencies. Most start off attempting to change the political order peacefully from within, but chose to break off, often violently, when they feel there is no other choice. This was true in 1775 and 1861.

In the case of the American Revolution, the move from change from within to separatism was relatively rapid. Compare the Declaration and Resolves of the First Continental Congress of October 14, 1774 to the Declaration Of The Causes And Necessity Of Taking Up Arms of July 6, 1775, and to the Declaration of Independence of July 4, 1776.

The quoted definition of insurgent forces is too limited. Broadening the definition of terrorism to include street crime and broadening the definition of insurgency to include non-violent political protest is too, well..., broad. Similarly, narrowing the definition of insurgency to effectively make it synonymous with guerrilla warfare or UW is too... narrow. Insurgency is not defined simply by its tactics.

As Mao noted in On Protracted War, guerrilla warfare is just one of the tactics chosen by the revolutionary movement, and depending on the stage of the revolution, the state of one's own forces and the state of the enemy, guerrilla warfare isn't even necessarily the best tactic. The mobile warfare he spoke of in those essays would be perfectly understood by Washington. To use Mao's terminology, mobile warfare, guerrilla warfare and even positional warfare play their roles depending on the situation, and work together to defeat the enemy.

In the Peninsular War (1808-1814), the key to victory was Wellington's war of maneuver, but this was made possible by the Spanish guerrillas. There were 300,000 French troops in Spain by 1810-11, but they were never able to get more than 70,000 in a single battle against the British and Portuguese combined army because of the guerrillas.

Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned Mao, Marulanda, Begin (Against the Brits), Castro (Che wasn't the leader in Cuba), Bolivar, Marti, Lenin, Khomeini (against the Shah), Collins, etc.
We were just trying not to be too obvious.

To rehash Che, he would actually go on my list of worst insurgent leaders. It seems like left to his own devices, without Fidel, he was a colossal failure - in the Congo, Bolivia and elsewhere. He would be up there with another failure, Emilio Aguinaldo, who had potential and some skills, but whose talents were outweighed by his flaws.

Regards,
Dave
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Old 02-11-2004, 15:32   #30
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I'm not sure I would even classify Che as a leader.
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He knows only The Cause.

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