Finding a weapons instructor

[Delta Recon]

Hey guys:

Gene gave me a heads up on this discussion, so I headed over here. I have read with interest the various perspectives on the selection of a weapons training program and/or instructor. Team Sergeant was correct in his assessment about the number of flakes out there teaching.

I have owned and operated the American Shooting Academy since 1984. I began in Phoenix and taught there until 1997 when I purchased my own place and build ranges here in west central New Mexico. I have dealt with every wannabe imaginable as well as with some very fine instructors.

Cops are the hardest to teach because most of them have the idea that if they don't know it, it is unknowable and about half of your training time is spent convincing them that you know what you are talking about and have something to offer. As a former LAPD and federal agent, I had some advantage, but I still find them to be a general pain in the ass. The good ones are great, but the rest are well....

Many instructors are too busy telling people what they know rather than teaching. I had an instructor training program at the Academy and it took 2 full years to prepare an instructor to teach at the basic level to my standards. Abotu 1/3 of those that started finished.

One of the things I would tell my citizen and LEO students was that my background as an SF trooper, a weapons instructor for RECONDO and at Special Forces Schools and my combat experience had little or nothing to add to the skill set required of citizens and LEOs in a democratic society. It just meant that I had been in harm's way and knew what to expect. The offensive nature of military tactical shooting is way different than the defensive nature of LEO and citizen use of lethal force.

As most of the quiet professionals on this forum can tell you, there is so much bullshit out there being sold by wannabes that are putting out nonsense. Weapons instructors are, in many cases, the most egotisitcal jerks walking around. this stuff is not rocket science. I could teach a chimpanzee to shoot, I just could not teach him judgement.

Fundamentals are the key. We do all the razzle dazzle stuff here with runnin' and gunnin' for very advanced students, but we constantly reinforce fundamentals.

If you put two weapons instructors in a room, you will get three opinions. There are some instructors with a wide background, others very narrow. I used to be of the opinion that if you had not been in harm's way, you really could not teach how to shoot in such an environment. The fundamentals remain the same and some of the finest instructors I know have never heard a shot fired in anger. You cannot get better weapons instruction than you will recieve from Gene Econ and, correct me if I am wrong, I don't believe Gene ever had the opportunity to engage in combat ops. I have been teaching for 40 years and have been in engagements as an LEO and certainly as a Delta Project team leader and I would be privileged to be under Gene's instruction and would follow him into combat any day.

Gunsite provides good instruction. I don't agree with some of their techniques and some of their instructors are arrogant and believe their own press clippings. Thunder Ranch with Clint Smith is probably the best available in the citizen market. No offense, gentlemen, but I find Masaad Ayoob to be particularly objectionable, but that is just my opinion based upon my experience with him and some things I know about his credibility.
Mark Fricke is in Prescott and I am sure there are others. It is truly caveat emptor. Front Site is not who I would recommend and I run across ads all the time from weapons instructors that upon my research really do not have the necesary background.

Best thing to do is to ask around and somebody with some credentials will be able to validate your choice or steer you in a better direction.

[Sinister]

I have to agree with Team Sergeant and his observation in the difference in mind set berween cops and Soldiers. I have seen diametrically opposed gunfighting philosophies even between major federal agencies in their use-of-force policies.

I went through one course partnered with the Chief Jailer of the (Australian) Northern Territoriy (an ex-Para). On entries the civilian instructors would scream for us to "Slow down!", announce ourselves as "Police", and give the bad guys an opportunity to surrender. We rolled our eyes up into our heads and continued with "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast", Speed-Surprise-Violence of Action, and "Hey, they wouldn't have sent us in if you guys on foot patrol weren't hard up for the final option."

The DEA has different ROE from the Secret Service and the Sky Marshals, and Treasury from Justice and Homeland Defense. Almost all the Feds had to "Knock and Announce" with "POLICE! SEARCH WARRANT!" while a military option was flexible linear shape charge blowing in the door or window.

While great guys, most cops still have to keep an arrest mentality vice military close with and destroy focus.

[vsvo]

Thank you TS and QP's for your advice and information. Terrific thread!

[HOLLiS]

I think our society is inundated with quick hatched professionals. One can learn by video, correspondent courses, etc and can be a "professional ...Gunsmith, instructor, repairman, or___________. Journeyman programs or a education programs like it are disappearing. They are considered too slow.

The information presented in this thread is the best I have ever read on the topic. The NRA will probably be the only magazine that would post this. Why? Magazines sell advertisements. Would one of these wannabes gunsmiths advertise in a magazine that would tell their clients that the gunsmith was a hack? So the cyle of breeding hacks continues.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

The information presented in this thread is the best I have ever read on the topic. The NRA will probably be the only magazine that would post this. Why? Magazines sell advertisements. Would one of these wannabes gunsmiths advertise in a magazine that would tell their clients that the gunsmith was a hack? So the cyle of breeding hacks continues.

Ahhhh, you are way ahead of your peers. Now start checking the background of some of those idiots that write for the gun magazines. You’d be surprised that many have no training in weapons but instead their training is in advertising weapons related products.

Besides the American Rifleman there is not one gun industry magazine I’d take time to read. Ninety-nine percent of them have too much bullshit for my tastes. Not one writes with “journalistic integrity” and it seems they all have but one common bond, the almighty dollar. I find them closely resembling today’s evangelical leaders, fill your followers with sooo much bullshit that they have no chance of ever discovering you’re a total phoney……

Delta Recon is being kind to those in the industry. I would like to add a caveat to his post, that the schools he writes of are for civilians, period.

TS

[kgoerz]

NDD
But you do know how to set up a range and Shoot-House. I don't remember you calling down from the Range last year demanding equipment.....LOL

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Besides the American Rifleman there is not one gun industry magazine I’d take time to read. Ninety-nine percent of them have too much bullshit for my tastes. Not one writes with “journalistic integrity” and it seems they all have but one common bond, the almighty dollar. I find them closely resembling today’s evangelical leaders, fill your followers with sooo much bullshit that they have no chance of ever discovering you’re a total phoney……

Delta Recon is being kind to those in the industry. I would like to add a caveat to his post, that the schools he writes of are for civilians, period.

TS

LOLOL, truth be known, I don't the NRA mag either, I may look through it. The industry seems to be the blind leading the blind and partial seeing. They follow the Mantra of "Successful Marketing", BS, FANCIER BS follow by even more glitzier BS.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by kgoerz

NDD
But you do know how to set up a range and Shoot-House.

Like this one?

[HOLLiS]

Some how I can not edit my mistakes.

"I don't the NRA mag either" should have read, "I don't read the NRA mag either"

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Like this one?

Looks right to me.

That red line looks pretty high though.

TR

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Looks right to me.

That red line looks pretty high though.

TR

If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.

[Delta Recon]

Delta Recon is being kind to those in the industry. I would like to add a caveat to his post, that the schools he writes of are for civilians, period.

TS[/QUOTE]

guys:

TS is absolutely right as I do not know who all is reading these posts and I am relatively new so I keep a bit of a rein on my normal "let the rough end drag" approach.

the training organizations I mentioned are indeed for citizens. Here at the ASA, we teach very sensitive techniques that I would not even discuss on the internet, but we vett the students very carefully.

One "gun magazine" that I do read is "Handloader" because there are not tactical issues presented but purely reloading data. I mention this because TS is certainly correct in his assessment of many gun writers. They really have no real background, and certainly do not have a genuine tactical background.

One thing about tactical shooting is that it is a finite subject. There is only so much you can do with a given technology and human capabilities. If a person has normal eye hand coordination, the techniques of tactical shooting are not a big deal. With the more advanced, offensive maneuvers, athleticism is an important component. Which is why this stuff is a young man's game, but the best instructors I have seen are about 50 years old or better. They know how to train others to maximize their potential in this endeavor.

For those of you citizens that are looking around for instruction, be very suspicious of anybody that claims they are SF or SEAL or whatever. Most of the QPs here will probably agree that if every guy that claims to have been SF or SEAL was for real, the rest of the military was nonexistent. There are ways to verify such claims, and guys that have that background are pretty low key. It is about good fundamentals and discipline. IPSC is not a suitable training venue, but IDPA has some things to offer. Remember though that these functions are games. If you recognize them as excellent places for gun handling and speed development and not as places that mirror tactical reality you may benefit from them.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by FrontSight

The more famous instructor gave high-level vague statements and operated in simplex-mode only.


FrontSight

We've already discussed your "famous" instructor; he is a fluff master with no formal training, a legend in his own mind. I've also told you that: if you can outshoot your instructor you should not be taking instruction from him in the first place.
Any 18B (I know) could out teach/out instruct the guy that taught you.
There’s more to a gunfight than shooting straight and that mindset cannot be taught by a “civilian” instructor that has never been in harms way.

TS


And BTW, please refrain from picking apart posts, read them in their entirety and glean from them their meaning as they were written.

[Bill Harsey]

Too bad someone who knows what he's doing doesn't step forward and help make the writing on this topic in the firearms publications better.

Until then it's going to all stay the same.

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

Too bad someone who knows what he's doing doesn't step forward and help make the writing on this topic in the firearms publications better.

Until then it's going to all stay the same.

Agree!

m1