Finding a weapons instructor - Page 4

**The Reaper** · 02-02-2006, 12:28

Jeff Prather is a friend of mine, but he served WITH SF, he is not an SF soldier himself.

He is/was an accomplished martial artist, for what that is worth and does military classes as well.

What is your specific question?

TR

jbour13 · 02-02-2006, 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Jeff Prather is a friend of mine, but he served WITH SF, he is not an SF soldier himself.

He is/was an accomplished martial artist, for what that is worth and does military classes as well.

What is your specific question?

TR

TR,

Not specific, but here's the history.

We got to talking this morning about my last deployment and shortfalls in training. I explained that I was impressed with the driving portion of the course I attended because I've never had the opportunity, but, I expected a little more immersion into weapons instruction. Especially since we pretty much knew we'd be going into indian country. Mind you I'm active duty, but the majority of deployees I went with were civilian and other branches (mostly AF). It didn't prepare people enough know their assigned weapons. Once in country I took on the role of trainer to show the un-initiated on maintenence, clearing stoppages, and how to fire the weapon from different positions, etc. I regurgitated what info I've gleaned over the last 8 years of service and most of that was second hand info from 11B's.

Being active duty and having spent my last duty assignment in an INF BN I was more than adequately prepared for the shooting phase. It basically was a course on load and shoot. Not enough time to explain sight picture, breathing and trigger squeeze. The pistol portion was good, but rifle was lacking.

The offer was given to me for instruction in Tuscon and recommeded by Jeff prior to my next trip to the sandbox. He also offered some advice while here in the local area.

I'm looking for anyone that has taken instruction from him and what they thought.

I don't get the impression of him being a fluff master. I do get the impression that he's really solid and I know he's definately got alot to offer a novice such as myself.

Jeff had the same impressions of some of the other courses we are supposed to attend prior to a deployment. If my org is going to pay and send me, no problem. I'm looking to spend my own money on quality.

Thanks for the help!

one-zero · 02-02-2006, 14:53

JBOUR,
You're down the road from me...In following up with some of the Glock business we had discussed I plan on stopping by your location in WB. There are much better options than the one you mention in our local area I can steer you towards...
1-0

NousDefionsDoc · 02-02-2006, 16:45

I know Jeff Prather as well and ocnversed with him via email a year or so ago. As TR said, he is an accomplished martial artist and a good guy.

one-zero · 02-02-2006, 18:31

I guess before I state "better" option I should figure out what exactly you intend to get out of the training....and you can bounce it off cost to travel out there or doing it in NVA but perhaps at higher course cost because of instructor premiums...

stinney · 02-03-2006, 14:40

Funny How this thread popped up, I was wondering if anybody had any thoughts on these guys, It came highly recommended from an LEO SWAT friend of mine.

http://www.rogers-shooting-school.com/

Tin-man

TitratetoEffect · 02-04-2006, 08:23

Have a few guys on the team that have been to Roger's school they say it is one of the best in the country.

Phil

**Team Sergeant** · 02-04-2006, 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitratetoEffect

Have a few guys on the team that have been to Roger's school they say it is one of the best in the country.

Phil

I think it's a mistake to have combat soldiers taught by LEO's, unless those soldiers are MP’s.

The difference in ROE and mindset are the foremost problem I have with LEO tactics, techniques and procedures, while they are great for LEO's they are not suited to combat soldiers or combat operations. Also, LEO's teach defensive shooting techniques, not offensive.

LEO's also stress one possibly two "criminals" or "crazies" in their training scenarios... not 10 to 20 "crusaders". While you might be able to negotiate with a criminal and possibly a crazy; you are not going to negotiate with a crusader. (There are no negotiation teams in US Special Operations.)

SF shooting schools are the best in the world for what we do, but not always easy to get all your guys into.

My .02

TS

HOLLiS · 02-04-2006, 11:27

Having been in both the military and LE I believe TS is 100%. My first LE combat shoot, was not a combat shoot from a 0311 (grunt) perspective. The roles are very different, though there are a few shared commonalities. I don't feel that knowing more is harmful. But in the Military the first phase of immediate action is not the same as LE and the LE response will probably get the soldier a place at Arlington. I noticed the responses to the thread on a response to hostile person refusing to obey orders. In RVN if that person was VC or NVA the response would be radically different than a LEO on the street. This is part of spin off problems that comes up when the military (standard infantry) starts taking on the role of LE in a country.

one-zero · 02-05-2006, 08:33

Concur on previous 2 comments...which has born true for several folks who've mixed operational emphasis in training. many instructors out there who are great shots and help hone your "mechanical" skills have no business carrying their course-work into tactical scenario training. Some of the worlds best shots have been shut out of certain USG contracts - after coaching men on how to push the performance envelope, they were around to see us put it to practical use in scenarios...Some decided to institute some of what they saw (but didn't really understand) in to their training w/other entities. Everyone in the business has seen this to some extent, but no-where have I seen it more than in LEO venues - great Americans trying to do the right thing - but with bad poop.
Imagine a soldier who is going into an active situation w/this same poop and the inherent problem is magnified greatly...
BWIW, I'd love to see some of our tactics used by LEO, even once...
"Officer Jones, we understand the crackheads had hardened the main door, and you thought the spider-charge you heard the military uses on embassy walls might do the trick, but using helo-snipers to eliminate squirters fleeing the scene! you've gone too far this time mister..."

TitratetoEffect · 02-05-2006, 09:07

TS,

I absolutely agree with you concerning the way we do business, and I have run into LEO's assuming they understood our situational environment. However, I maybe should have clarified my position a little better concerning Mr. Roger's school.

If you attend Mr Roger's school and leave there a better shooter, applying the fundamentals better than you did before then it was worth your time. And, if you can apply those fundamentals in our environment you will be more effective when the time comes. If you go there and he is pushing LEO tactics on you then it is time to leave.

I honestly don't know the extent of his training. Other guys have gone, and from what they have said his instruction was more of learning to apply the fundamentals of shooting than an application of TTPs.

**Peregrino** · 02-05-2006, 09:25

Couldn't agree more with the last three comments. I really wish some of them (LEOs) understood the difference between the missions and the quality/quantity of adversaries. I also wish they wouldn't spout off about applying lessons learned in (poorly) structured paintball scenarios to military tactical problems. Please don't misunderstand - I'm a big fan of Force-on-Force training with non-lethal training ammunition and that includes all flavors: simunitions, airsoft, and paintball. I also believe that LEADERSHIP is responsible for conducting supervised, focused, goal oriented training that meets realistic mission requirements. (Paintball "wars" are not training.) The problem with most people training on the civilian side is that they have never operated against peer/near peer adversaries armed and motivated to kill. The LEO success rates against criminals and crazies (their normal adversary) has skewed their tactics to the point that encounters with genuine crusader types are usually disasterous. (Thank the Gods that they're also extremely rare.) If you want civilian training for personal defense, there are good civilian schools out there. If you want LEO training, the same applies. If you want military training, be careful. You may not get what you paid for. In fact what you paid for could get you killed in combat (above and beyond the normal combat risks). If you're looking to get training, do your homework first. Find a program that you feel will meet your identified goals. Go to the training, learn what they have to teach, and don't be afraid to to apply "critical thinking skills" to everything you see. Just because you paid for something doesn't mean you have to incorporate it in your "toolbox". Ahhhh - enough rambling. I'm preaching to the choir. FWIW - Peregrino

kgoerz · 02-05-2006, 15:47

Went to Bill Rogers Shooting School (1997, sent the entire Range 37 Committee). He will give you or change his POI in order to fit your purpose. LEO or Military. You just have to ask. It was one of the best reactive Shooting Schools I ever went to. Back then the cost was cheap if you brought your own Ammo. He had a hydraulic activated metal plate Range. Also had a lazar activated paint-Ball Gun down Range. If you exposed your body to much from the cover you activated the beam which activated the Paint-Gun. It definitely made you use your cover. He didn't have this activated all the time as to not to over do it. I know certain units built replicas of his Metal Plate Range on their own facilities.

skibum · 02-06-2006, 10:39

I have attended Rogers' Shooting School twice, in '02 and '05. His training does not address ROE or tactics, except to reload behind cover.

The goal of the training is to train the student to make solid hits on head-sized, fleeting targets from contact-distance to about 20 yards. There is also a VERY strong emphasis on strong hand-only and weak hand-only shooting. The standards for the weak hand are the same as for strong hand-only and two handed shooting (i.e., you have the same, limited time to hit the targets, at the same ranges, and to reload). The "blast drill" has you engaging all seven targets as they pop up and down, where not shooting = a miss. Doing the blast drill weak hand only is stressful and exhausting.

I think the cost of Rogers Shooting School, while high, is worth it, unless your unit/agency has comparable or better facilities and instruction for which you do not have to pay out of your own pocket. When I was there in '02, one of the instructors said that FAST company had just purchased a few ranges, and on my last trip, Bill Rogers (owner/chief instructor) said that Larry Vickers inquired about getting a few of the ranges for the unit he was in at the time (now, I'm just repeating what Bill said; I have no reason to disbelieve him, but I want to make clear that this is only hearsay on my part). Chuck Pfarrer's (spelling?) book, Warrior Soul, states that he was sent to Rogers' as part of his training in SEAL Team 6.

Cannot agree enough with comments about LEO vs. military mindset and tactics. And what's more, many (most?) LEOs don't know what they don't know.

**Team Sergeant** · 02-06-2006, 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by skibum

His training does not address ROE or tactics, except to reload behind cover.

"reload behind cover"....

nice as long as you're not in the middle of a room, hallway, tight space, etc etc....

It only works well if you are already behind cover to start with.....

TS