Are we at war with Islam?

[BMT (RIP)]

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/...&w=RTR&coview=

PC Dutch finnally figured out they were wrong.

BMT

'fault lines' of radical Islam growing

[danjam]

Do we have a choice ?

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD82004

[Airbornelawyer]

As I believe I may have stated somewhere near the beginning of this rather long and winding thread, it is not our choice.

Our war is not with Islam or Muslims in general, but with adherents to a particular ideology who believe their ideology condones the murder of anyone - "infidel", insufficiently motiviated Muslim, or passer-by - in the path of their vision.

It is up to Muslims to choose how they respond to the calls of people like this Abu 'Abd ar-Rahman al-'Athari Sultan Ibn Bijad. While among the world's billion or so Muslims very few have answered the call of these people, in far too many places and for far too long far too many Muslims have chosen not to respond. Our President was criticized by the left here for his formulation of "you are either with us or you are with the terrorists" - he was called simple-minded, dividing the world into black and white, etc, - but what he was doing was issuing a call to arms, a response to the Bin Ladens and Abu 'Abd ar-Rahman al-'Athari Sultan Ibn Bijads.

The good news is that in most places I think we are succeeding. A critical mass is developing among Muslims repelled by the actions of these Islamist terrorists. The bad news is twofold: one, that it has taken far too long and still has far to go, and two, that there are too many places where it has not taken root. These places include the West Bank, Hizbullah-controlled South Lebanon, the backwaters of Saudi Arabia, and various Islamist-dominated ghettoes in Western Europe.

There is another problem areas that must be addressed. One is the schools where the ulema are trained. For example, Cairo's Al-Azhar, the world's oldest university, is dominated by "theologians" who think that God doesn't like suicide, but doesn't mind "martyrdom operations," especially when the targets are "invaders" of Muslim lands. Thus the religious leadership will not unequivocally condemn terrorism. The silver lining in this black cloud is that Islam, especially Sunni Islam, is loosely structured and Muslim theologians can only persuade, not order, and can be discredited. We can and must bring more pressure on the Egyptian regime to rein in these ulema, and the Administration's democracy initiative in the Middle East is part of this.

But this is a long term process. It can work, but it is not a guarantee of success. Democratization is not a cure-all. One example Danjam might be more familiar with: Israeli Arabs. They are residents of a democracy but arguably to some extent second-class citizens (I say arguably because, well, it's arguable - for example, there have been various laws for acquiring land from the government, etc., that give a preference to veterans. While facially neutral, these are discriminatory in effect since Jews are drafted while Arabs are not). Israeli Arabs are ethnically no different from Palestinians. But while there have been some Israeli Arab terrorists, there has been nowhere near the kind of radicalization you see among Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and terrorist groups have had little success recruiting Israeli Arabs. Israeli Arabs can see and read the hate being spewed by the PA and the media and religious leaders it controls, but they overwhelmingly reject it. Opinion polls of Israelis and Palestinians show that while majorities of Palestinians generally don't view acts of violence against Israeli and Western civilians as terrorism, majorities of Israeli Arabs, like Israeli Jews, do (The fault line is that many Israeli Arabs also view many acts of the IDF and Israeli police in the territories as state terrorism, while majorities of Israeli Jews do not. Pretty much everyone agrees that the acts of people like Baruch Goldstein were terrorism, though).

World War Two analogies are overwrought. I was thinking of makingt the analogy that our war was with the Nazis and Fascists and not the German and Italian people per se, and that it was the choice of the German and Italian people that dictated the nature of the conflict, but I'm not sure the analogy carries us very far. A better analogy might be if the Nazis never seized power, but operated as a militant movement, exporting the SA bullyboy tactics of the domestic violence in Weimar Germany to other countries. Then they would have been an international terrorist movement, claiming to speak for all "true Aryan" Germans, and it would have been up to the world to demand that Germans speak out and take action, lest the Nazis become the international voice of German-ness by default.

But there actually was a historical situation close to this prior to World War One. The Black Hand movement was a Serb nationalist group that employed international terrorism with the tacit support of many in the government and military of the Kingdom of Serbia. When one of their terrorists assassinated the heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary, that empire held all of Serbia responsible.

Serbs had a choice again in the 1990s. Side with the former Communists who had recast themselves as ethnic nationalists, or side with the West and choose peace and democracy. They failed that test. In that case, a Serb equivalent of Israeli Arabs, Serbian-Americans, also failed that test. Too many Serbian-Americans, such as Congresswoman Helen Delich Bentley, bought the line being sold by Milosevic's propagandists and did everything they could to prevent us from confronting "Greater Serbia" irredentism and trying to make Yugoslavia's break-up peaceful.

[danjam]

I think we are basically on the same page.
However you say it much better than I.

Are normal non-muslims innocents according to muslims (or factions thereof)?

I ask this because an article got me thinking, and it is not a must to have a war with an enemy.

[casey]

20 pages on this thread, some spirited discussions, alot of very well articulated ponderances and yet the answer IMHO remains the same - It don't matter what the fuck we think - after the 98 fatwa was issued, when kaffirs are killed - its the will of allah, when muslims are killed - its the will of allah, when muj's are killed - yep, its allahs will and congratulations -your a shaheed. Because after all is said and done, their belief is that Islam is the only one true religion must have global dominance - if you doubt this check out the flag.

The only thing I'm sure of is that my grandkids children will still be fighting some strain of this peaceful religion. Like the man said "there's no crying in baseball"
so focus on the problem in your little slice of heaven, and get to work.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by casey

20 pages on this thread, some spirited discussions, alot of very well articulated ponderances and yet the answer IMHO remains the same - It don't matter what the fuck we think - after the 98 fatwa was issued, when kaffirs are killed - its the will of allah, when muslims are killed - its the will of allah, when muj's are killed - yep, its allahs will and congratulations -your a shaheed. Because after all is said and done, their belief is that Islam is the only one true religion must have global dominance - if you doubt this check out the flag.

The only thing I'm sure of is that my grandkids children will still be fighting some strain of this peaceful religion. Like the man said "there's no crying in baseball"
so focus on the problem in your little slice of heaven, and get to work.

Unless we get them to implode in the sort of religious civil war that Christianity has experienced before.

Then they can fear one another.

TR

[casey]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Unless we get them to implode in the sort of religious civil war that Christianity has experienced before.

Then they can fear one another.

TR

From your lips to God's ear Sir!

[QRQ 30]

Very Interesting:

after all is said and done, their belief is that Islam is the only one true religion must have global dominance

I went to Catholic schoools from kindergarten through the University. The above quote could very well be just as truly preached by substuting "Catholic Religion" or "Dhristianity" for "Islam".

Check out history throughout the crusades, middle ages, Spanish Inquisition and the conquests and conversion of the pagans of the New World.

[casey]

Originally Posted by QRQ 30

Very Interesting:



I went to Catholic schoools from kindergarten through the University. The above quote could very well be just as truly preached by substuting "Catholic Religion" or "Dhristianity" for "Islam".

Check out history throughout the crusades, middle ages, Spanish Inquisition and the conquests and conversion of the pagans of the New World.

I made it thru grade and high school with Sister St. Incubus too (knuckles intact). But when was the last time you read/heard of a bus full of kids being blown up by a 15yr old for Jesus? A VBIED driven into a building for Christ? An Imir being charged for taking a little boy on a special weekend vacation? How about all those pesky Islamic women wanting to become leaders in the great peaceful religion of peace. You've made my point - Islam is now in their dark ages, with one major difference on their side- modern technology - a very scary combination.

I could not agree with you more re: the crusades, Spanish Inquisition, et al,. Not to be ignorant of history, I choose to look back but not stare - cause whats going to kill me today/tommorrow is right in front of me. Its just easier for me to target acquire looking ahead my brother.

[lrd]

Holland Daze
From the December 27, 2004 issue: The Dutch rethink multiculturalism.
by Christopher Caldwell
12/27/2004, Volume 010, Issue 15

But on top of that, the Dutch public is being presented with an interpretation of their crisis that other publics in Europe are not. Namely, the view that the problem is not "radicalism" or "marginalization" or "fundamentalism" but Islam--that Islam and democracy don't coexist well. There are several reasons that the debate has taken a different turn in the Netherlands, but primary among them is the presence of outspoken Muslims.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...darxx.asp?pg=1

[lrd]

The Norwegian Defence Research Establishment's report on Theo Van Gogh's murder: http://rapporter.ffi.no/rapporter/2005/00376.pdf

Abstract: "This report surveys in depth the available open source information about the ritualistic murder of the filmmaker Theo Van Gogh on the streets of Amsterdam on November 2, 2004. The report makes the case that the murder of Van Gogh was a terrorist attack implemented by an al-Qaida inspired radical Islamist group within the framework of global jihad, and not an act of religious violence by a lone fanatic. The report also argues that the invasion of Iraq was an important motivational factor for the assassin and his accomplices, in addition to grievances related to the Dutch government’s policies concerning immigration and Dutch counter-terrorism measures."

Originally Posted by casey

I made it thru grade and high school with Sister St. Incubus too (knuckles intact). But when was the last time you read/heard of a bus full of kids being blown up by a 15yr old for Jesus? A VBIED driven into a building for Christ? An Imir being charged for taking a little boy on a special weekend vacation? How about all those pesky Islamic women wanting to become leaders in the great peaceful religion of peace. You've made my point - Islam is now in their dark ages, with one major difference on their side- modern technology - a very scary combination.

I could not agree with you more re: the crusades, Spanish Inquisition, et al,. Not to be ignorant of history, I choose to look back but not stare - cause whats going to kill me today/tommorrow is right in front of me. Its just easier for me to target acquire looking ahead my brother.

Christianity went through the Reformation. Islam has not had its equivilant. The current fight may be the equivilant.

Maybe no one noticed, but Indonesia had elections not all that long ago. And the population (the most populous Muslim nation on Earth) elected a government that ran on a platform to fight fundamental terrorists.

Seems to me that at least one portion of the Islamic world has spoken... and they have spoken in our favor.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Interesting point, GH.

What did the Iraqi People just say?