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Cloning a Human
Old 05-02-2012, 18:07   #1
Penn
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Cloning a Human

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-zink-science/

If there was ever an argument for cloning a human, I think this specimen could present a logical argument for cloning, scientifically based, to test such things the blank slate theory. Given that its biology is 5.300 hundred years old, we would assume in cloning the developed brain mass after cloning would reflect that time period. I wonder if the clones cognitive ability/capacity would be limited, by that biology, or could the clone, regardless of genetic material, adapt.

It would be truly interesting if we could recover enough of a sample to clone this human.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-zink-science/

Last edited by Penn; 05-02-2012 at 18:16.
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The Question would be.......
Old 05-02-2012, 18:35   #2
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The Question would be.......

........................when does life begin?

To clone something is not that hard for scientists

But if you clone human cells are you going to grow the cells to a fixed point in a lab - or in a live female in hopes of getting a real person?

Once the fetus becomes viable would it not be a person with their own rights?

There is talk in some circles of cloning yourself for spare parts - just at some point in the process you suck out the brain.
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Old 05-02-2012, 19:01   #3
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just at some point in the process you suck out the brain.
Isn't that what they do at Marine boot camp?
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Old 05-02-2012, 19:50   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn View Post
Given that its biology is 5.300 hundred years old, we would assume in cloning the developed brain mass after cloning would reflect that time period. I wonder if the clones cognitive ability/capacity would be limited, by that biology, or could the clone, regardless of genetic material, adapt.
Maybe he with his "limited" capacity he could explain how the Great Pyramid at Giza was built.
He would be closer in time to the builders than we are.

http://www.timstouse.com/EarthHistor...stingfacts.htm

I don't buy the assumption that people in the past were less intelligent.
They just didn't have the benefit of accumulated knowledge we have.
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Old 05-02-2012, 21:13   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen View Post

I don't buy the assumption that people in the past were less intelligent.
They just didn't have the benefit of accumulated knowledge we have.
Actually I think they could have been MORE intelligent.

They didn't have powerpoint.
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Old 05-02-2012, 21:18   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen View Post
Maybe he with his "limited" capacity he could explain how the Great Pyramid at Giza was built.
He would be closer in time to the builders than we are.

http://www.timstouse.com/EarthHistor...stingfacts.htm

I don't buy the assumption that people in the past were less intelligent.
They just didn't have the benefit of accumulated knowledge we have.
I agree. I can't imagine going back in time 500 years and trying to explain and manufacture a lot of the stuff we take for granted, i.e. penicillin, a firearm, a bicycle, a computer.

Maybe I watched "Army of Darkness" one too many times.
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Old 05-02-2012, 21:27   #7
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Originally Posted by craigepo View Post
I agree. I can't imagine going back in time 500 years and trying to explain and manufacture a lot of the stuff we take for granted, i.e. penicillin, a firearm, a bicycle, a computer.

Maybe I watched "Army of Darkness" one too many times.
So maybe I didn't say ALL of the words....
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Old 05-02-2012, 21:30   #8
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If evolution is a reality, he might be MORE intelligent. After all, we've removed so many of the hazards from the environment and made it so tame that unprecedented numbers of intellectual defectives are surviving to breed; thereby diluting the gene pool, and dumbing down the entire species.
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Old 05-02-2012, 21:58   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn View Post
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-zink-science/

If there was ever an argument for cloning a human, I think this specimen could present a logical argument for cloning, scientifically based, to test such things the blank slate theory. Given that its biology is 5.300 hundred years old, we would assume in cloning the developed brain mass after cloning would reflect that time period. I wonder if the clones cognitive ability/capacity would be limited, by that biology, or could the clone, regardless of genetic material, adapt.

It would be truly interesting if we could recover enough of a sample to clone this human.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-zink-science/
Penn, if I am reading you right, what makes you think the clone would be anything like a person of that time period? Cloning just means creating a new person from scratch, not an exact copy of the original who is going to have the same memory, culture, etc...of that person. So long as they are a homo sapien, a perfect clone would be like any other ordinary person, just genetically identical to the prehistoric person.

As for cloning, I think that is a bad idea, because cloning technology isn't perfect. Clones age extra fast because the DNA they use is aged to a certain degree, so once the clone is born, the cells have to "catch up" to the actual age. So if you take the DNA of a thirty-five year-old and make a clone of them, that newborn baby is going to have the DNA of a thirty-five year-old. So they are going to grow and age faster (body-wise anyway).

Regarding intelligence, people of ancient times did some things that to this day we don't know how they did in terms of constructing things (I believe they still don't really know how they constructed the pyramids in Egypt for example). But I'm not sure about whether humans then were more intelligent then humans today. Academic intelligence was not needed much back then. But how much did life back then require other forms of intelligence, like with regards to planning and organizing to hunt and farm and survive...? And does the breeding of stupid people yield more stupid people? That is an extremely controversial issue because it gets into racial issues (are the Jewish people genetically superior to most other populations as they produce so many smart people, and thus have smart people breeding with other smart people, while are blacks, as a population, lower in intelligence then whites because so many blacks are mired in poverty, which results likely in a lot of people of lesser intelligence breeding with other people lacking intelligence, etc...).
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Old 05-02-2012, 22:02   #10
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The Industrial Revolution was brought about by men with an 8th grade edumacation (at best). And 99% of civilization by people with no formal education.

Pat

p.s.: "edumacation" got through the spell check.
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Old 05-02-2012, 22:05   #11
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Originally Posted by Broadsword2004 View Post
(I believe they still don't really know how they constructed the pyramids in Egypt for example).
More is being learned about the precision of construction all the time.
Couldn't be duplicated today even with our modern equipment.
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Old 05-02-2012, 22:57   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSM View Post
The Industrial Revolution was brought about by men with an 8th grade education (at best). And 99% of civilization by people with no formal education.

Pat

p.s.: "edumacation" got through the spell check.
Intelligence comes in different forms. You might be a tribesman for example who cannot read or write, but who is very intelligent in terms of things like planning, strategy, tactics, etc...for things ranging from hunting to warfare. On the other hand, you could be great at mathematics and computer progrmaming, but terrible at the type of intelligence the tribesman has. So humans could have lacked in academic intelligence but still been smart in other ways in old times.
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:48   #13
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If evolution is a reality, he might be MORE intelligent. After all, we've removed so many of the hazards from the environment and made it so tame that unprecedented numbers of intellectual defectives are surviving to breed; thereby diluting the gene pool, and dumbing down the entire species.

Broadsword
Regarding intelligence, people of ancient times did some things that to this day we don't know how they did in terms of constructing things (I believe they still don't really know how they constructed the pyramids in Egypt for example). But I'm not sure about whether humans then were more intelligent then humans today. Academic intelligence was not needed much back then. But how much did life back then require other forms of intelligence, like with regards to planning and organizing to hunt and farm and survive...? And does the breeding of stupid people yield more stupid people? That is an extremely controversial issue because it gets into racial issues (are the Jewish people genetically superior to most other populations as they produce so many smart people, and thus have smart people breeding with other smart people, while are blacks, as a population, lower in intelligence then whites because so many blacks are mired in poverty, which results likely in a lot of people of lesser intelligence breeding with other people lacking intelligence, etc...).
Peregrino, (tongue in cheek?) I would think your comment is most likely more correct biologically. The transfer of gene that remain in the pool due to pharmacology interventions prolonging the lifespan, with out my Diovan, I'm dead.
That said, I think its an entirely different matter with regard to intelligence.

Broadsword, you are correct, many would consider your statement racist. Intelligence is not related to poverty, cognitive ability/IQ varies, but what creates poverty is economic, and that dynamic directly relates to access to education; which we all know is the great divider in social structure/class. People tend to marry within their culture group, and region.

But, I do think there is a conditioning process, whereby repetitive action disconnects certain pathways in the brain. People in NJ are known as aggressive drivers, they tailgate at 80mph on the NJ/TRPK all day long, and merge effortlessly; this may be the result of all the tunnels, bridges, and on/off ramps that have made them the envy of the nation amateur NASCAR drivers, while drivers in PA never merge, drive ridiculously slow, and disturbingly blindly it seems, in one lane. Never allowing for a smooth flow. I think they are brain dead, but they still have the capacity to learn; and can, its a conditional process.
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Old 05-03-2012, 16:57   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadsword2004 View Post
Intelligence comes in different forms. You might be a tribesman for example who cannot read or write, but who is very intelligent in terms of things like planning, strategy, tactics, etc...for things ranging from hunting to warfare. On the other hand, you could be great at mathematics and computer progrmaming, but terrible at the type of intelligence the tribesman has. So humans could have lacked in academic intelligence but still been smart in other ways in old times.
Too many people are confusing knowledge and experience with intelligence.

People are not born (or cloned) with an understanding of tools, construction, math, strategy, etc.

Cloned humans would be born with a blank slate, just like the rest of us. Our knowledge and experience make us what we are.

Evolution is rarely fast, in the big scheme of things. Odds are, the 5,000 year old clone would be whatever you taught and trained him to be, whether it was a hunter, a fry cook, a rocket scientist, or a soldier.

Physiologically, I doubt that you could tell the difference over 5,000 years. If the clone ate our diet, had our medical and dental care, etc., they would be regular people, just like us.

TR
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